The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, The Light said:

  13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's look a little more closely: 

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

What TIME IS IT here? John said "I looked" and "I heard.." This is around 95 AD when John was alive! How then can this be the rapture of the church still in our future? The answer is, ONLY IN IMAGINATION.  Any beginning reader could tell us this is JOHN being called up to heaven, NOT THE CHURCH.  Sorry, we cannot form doctrine with imagination. It most come from the Written Word of God rightly understood. 

 

Here, let me help you.

Rev 1

¹⁹ Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If you want to put these 95 AD constraints on what I have posted, why don't these same things apply to what you have posted. You want 95 AD me, but for you it's all a vision. How convenient. 

Here, let me help you.  Did I need help?  No. Not "convenient." Just following the text. It seems very difficult for some. Did John use the word "I" or did he not?  I looked, I heard  So John is talking about what HE SAW and heard. From tradition around 95 AD. What the voice he heard from the vision? Probably it was. But he heard in in 95 AD. Did He SEE this throne in the vision? It seems likely he did, and he SAW it in 95 AD. But God is showing Him the throne room of the past. We can prove that by what He saw, which is exact what God showed him. 

 

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Note, "I" ends in verse 2 and John then writes what he SAW. a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

We know from surrounding scriptures that John was seeing a vision. A vision can be of past, present or future events or all of them mixed up. We determine which (past, present, future) by what is written!

John saw the throne room but Jesus, the main character of this book, was NOT SEEN. 

Later on in the vision John saw things far far out into his future - even into our future. But he saw it in 95 AD.

All I have done is separate reality from vision. Your argument fails. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

  13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thought so. Can't be done.

What do we have then? NO PROOF that those elders represent the raptured church. That too is only imagination.  After Jesus rose from the dead, who does the bible show as the NEXT people to rise from the dead? (thinking about who the elders could be in a vision of the throne room around 32 AD)

The elders have white robes, they have crowns and there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations which proves that it must be the Church. No imagination necessary, as usual.

There are many white robes in Revelation. It proves nothing.  You did not read that right. 

 ⁹ And they sang a new song:

“You are worthy to take the scroll     and to break open its seals. For you were killed, and by your sacrificial death you bought for God     people from every tribe, language, nation, and race. ¹⁰ You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God,     and they shall rule on earth.”

They" is the 24 elders. All the rest is the elders taking about the church. The tribes, the languages, the nations, the races: these are all the people Jesus died for.  Your argument fails again.

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, The Light said:

I think that this is a good point, however, as per the Word, there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. Additionally, there is no proof that these people ascended to heaven and there is no scriptural support for such. They did not ascend when Jesus did.

There is a very strong hint the did ascend. If people with resurrection bodies were raised, then living back in their city, History would have recorded it. The bible would have recorded it. Some would say they died again. There is no proof either way. Since it was not possible for people to get resurrection bodies, as proven by Jesus, we can guess they too got resurrection bodies.  True, there is no proof (except perhaps for the elders) that they ascended, but then, there is no proof they did not.  All we know is, John saw 24 elders in heaven, with no explanation as to who they are. So people speculate. All  I am saying is, some people were resurrected around the same time. You are right, there is no proof. But there is also no proof they represent the church either. 

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, The Light said:

These verses are to the 12 tribes. The church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. See Rev 5 and the 24 elders speaking for a group of people.

Like I said, water off a duck's back.  There is NO PROOF these verses are to the 12 tribes!  (1 Thes. 4 & 5.) Did no just not notice these scriptures were written to GENTILES - the GENTILE church of Thessaloniki? You amaze me! 

The church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened.  MYTH, you have zero proof. 

See Rev 5  Been there: water off a duck's back Your theories there have been proven wrong. This answer won't work. 

the 24 elders speaking for a group of people.  No, speaking OF a groups of people: all those Jesus died for. 

[iamlamad]

47 minutes ago, The Light said:

  13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

This will all happen SUDDENLY, when people are thinking peace and safety, SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves - NO WARNING. Their resurrection will cause and earthquake. (Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...) This earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction.

No, the sudden destruction comes with the beginning of the day of the Lord. They say peace and safety, immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins.

Sorry, wrong again. You are missing what Paul wrote: 

AT THE SAME TIME: TWO groups of people get two different results: Some get raptured, some get left behind in one instant of time. those left behind get sudden destruction. 
But WHEN? It all happens in an instant. The dead raised, the alive raised, and the sudden destruction. 

The WHEN is when people are saying peace and safely. Yes, it is written with the sudden destruction, but you MISS that the sudden destruction comes at the same moment in time those alive are raised. 

Thinking and saying "peace and safety is not an instantaneous thing! What Paul describes IS instantaneous. The church age ending and the The Day of the Lord beginning is instantaneous. 

Jesus comes for the rapture just BEFORE the wrath: His coming triggers the rapture, and the rapture triggers wrath.  You are right that "Jesus comes." Paul SHOWS this coming in 1 Thes. 4.

They say peace and safety, immediately after the tribulation of those days. You are getting false doctrine mixed in with truth. The peace and safety is in a RAPTURE passage! The peace and safety is what people will be saying at the time of the rapture / Day of the Lord. However, seals 1 through 5 are church age, and Jesus said the church would have tribulation. Since the church age is long, God called it great tribulation during the church age. However, this is NOT the days of GT Jesus said would come after the abomination.  The abomination is pinpointed by the fleeing we see in 12:6. This is over 3.5 years after the 6th seal.  The days of GT Jesus spoke of won't come until late in chapter 14, and the beheaded only begin to show up in chapter 15. 

Your argument fails again.  You got ONE THING right: Wrath starts at the 6th seal. It is the start of the DAY of his wrath. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, The Light said:

  13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It will start when the dead in Christ rise. But those alive and in Christ will be raptured just as they feel the ground begin to quake. But those left behind cannot escape: it will be a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be the world around. 

So we have two things to search for in Revelation: an earthquake and the start of WRATH. WE find BOTH at the 6th seal.

It is not the Church that will be raptured. They are in heaven before the seals and the 70th week of Daniel.

That is strange: the church is made up of born again ones: those IN CHRIST. Paul's rapture is for those IN CHRIST. 
Therefore it IS the church (those in Christ) who are raptured. And this rapture of those IN CHRIST will come just before wrath, according to Paul. As you said, Christ comes at the 6th seal. No, actually He comes JUST BEFORE the 6th seal, because His coming triggers the rapture, and the rapture triggers WRATH. 

WHERE in Revelation did John see the raptured church in heaven? It was in chapter 7. AFTER the first 6 seals. But they arrived there just before WRATH at the 6th seal. 

You miss it again. 

[The Light]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The editor is messing up   I get very frustrated with this server and the programming. One can start with this color as the default, or "automatic," but paste something and the automatic turns to whatever. Then there is not color there that matches this color. 

Seems to be working good today.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course it's vision, which is why the seals are not opened.  This is imagination with no back up scripture. First, the seals ARE opened in the vision, all of them. But we must determine which is vision and which is reality. For that we MUST follow the context. The context of seal one is the very time Jesus ascended. That is printed in chapter 5 for all to read. Most refuse to believe it.

The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows. Here are the 1st four seals in Matt 24. Note that all these are the beginning of sorrows, not some of these, ALL THESE.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

As to the 7 spirits of God, even though they are present in the throne room, they have already been sent, according to the scripture so your point is mute.  You are showing a lack of understanding of the text. It is 95 AD and John is seeing a VISION. But WHAT TIME IS IT in the vision? 
1. JESUS NOT SEEN in the throne room  (time? Around 2BC up to around 32 AD. That is the time frame of when Jesus was on the earth.)

2. Holy Spirit there in the throne room (Time? The Holy Spirit left the throne room and came to Jesus when He was baptized: circa 30 AD. So the time had to be BEFORE Jesus was baptized.

3. Jesus NOT FOUND in a search. (Time? Since we know Jesus WAS found later after He prevailed over death, the time has to be some time BEFORE He rose from the dead. 

4. Jesus now FOUND worthy. (Time? It has to be AFTER Jesus prevailed over death but before He ascended.

5. Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room WITH the Holy Spirit, but then immediately sends HIm down. (Time? We can get close: around 32 AD.

6. Jesus takes the book from the FAther and begins opening seals. (Time? the same time He ascended: around 32 AD)

I think you need to see it:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  [WHEN? Again it is no mystery. We KNOW when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.]

Notice, He arrives WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, but immediately sends Him down. The FIRST WORDS God spoke to me about chapters 4 & 5 are this: "IT SHOWS TIMING." Later, "IT ALSO SHOWS THE MOVEMENT OF TIME."  I was SO BLIND, I studied for perhaps hours a day for two weeks and could not see timing OR the movement of time! However, the blindness lifted and finally I could see it. Most people's preconceptions are so strong, they, like me, are blinded to what this passage is telling us. 

As I said, your points have not legs to stand on. The Church is in heaven in Rev 5. You can dance around the facts all you want, but it's not going to change what is written.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapters 4 and 5 are a future event of the rapture of the Church in heaven.  MYTH: the text will not back this statement up. It tells the opposite.

The scripture says that there are 24 elders and they are speaking for others that are present. It has to be because there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. That is the fact and that is the scriptural support. No imagination is necessary.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes.   MYTH: God is still in the church age and WILL BE until the 6th seal. We are still living in the time of the martyrs. Are martyrs still be added to the number? You KNOW they are.  note: when you get the timing right, this will be a true statement: AFTER the rapture (5th seal-6th seal) THEN God will turn His attention to Israel. The problem is, your timing is off. 

We are still in the Church age until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. When it does, the 70th week of Daniel can begin with the confirming of the covenant. Part of Israel will have it blindness removed as God turns his attention to Israel. The seal is the Great Tribulation as we can prove by the scriptures already listed and further proved by the abomination of desolation shown in Matt 24. Then at the 6th seal, Jesus comes as we can also see in Matt 24 and Rev 14.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Church is never mentioned again until Rev 19, in heaven.  It is true, John did not use the word "church." But it is really MYTH: the martyrs of seal 5 are church age martyrs. John has not left the church age yet. That will not happen until seal 6 and the start of WRATH. This is just another theory that is in error. However, it is a very well used theory by pretribbers! Too bad it is myth. 

The 5th seal is about the Jews. It is the great tribulation. We can see in Rev 12 that when the great tribulation occurs some of the Jews in Israel flee. Satan can't get to them so he goes after the remnant of her seed which is without question the 12 tribes across the earth.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 6 starts God dealing with His chosen people. Chapter 6, IN CONTEXT is 32 AD. Anyone can make the bible say anything if they are willing to pull verses out of context. I really think people on these threads should know better. You really need to take off your preconceived glasses and hang out on chapters 4 & 5 until you understand God's message there. It is about TIMING, not the rapture. 

 

Strange that scripture after scripture proves what I'm saying. You start off wrong, so you end wrong. (not realizing that the cosmic signs in Matt 24 are the cosmic signs in Rev 6) How you are able to conclude there is a pretrib rapture when everything else is wrong is beyond me.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The 70th week of Daniel begins with the confirming of the covenant and then the rider on the white horse, a false Christ  This is just myth that comes from human reasoning and imagination: it has nothing to do with what is really written. However, the first part, not bolded, is truth. You went on a tangent when you mentioned the first seal, which is 32 AD. 

What I'm saying is fully supported by Matt 24, Rev 6, Rev 7, Daniel 11 and Dan 12. The fact that you can't see it is really not a mytery.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Seal 5 is the great tribulation  According to Jesus own words, you cannot get the the days of GT UNTIL FIRST you have the abomination. We can locate the abomination by the timing of those that flee when they SEE IT: and we find that fleeing in 12:6. You are therefore 6 chapters off in your theory. Will you change your theory to fit the scriptures? 

If you can't figure out that revelation is not in order, that's on you.

Rev 12, 13 and 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seals, which can be proven over and over and over and over. If you can't see that, it's just the same as the Jews can't see Jesus is the Messiah. Conclusion, you still have scales on your eyes.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

IN CONTEXT seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. John has not yet arrived at seal 6 that ENDS the church age and STARTS the Day of the Lord. 

Church in heaven in Rev 5. 5TH seal is the great tribulation. See Matt 24, Rev 7, Rev 14, Rev 15, Dan 12.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Seal six is the coming of Jesus prior to wrath. I would say a second BEFORE seal six.

This is just another example of you imagining something without scriptural support.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It will be His coming as shown by Paul in 1 thes. 4: His coming FOR His bride. Is this your thinking to? His rapture coming? If so, you really need to rethink the time of GT. If this is His coming for the rapture (which it is) then seal 5 is church age. His coming will trigger the rapture events (including the dead in Christ) and then the rapture will trigger the DAY. 

Church in heaven in Rev 5. 5TH seal is the great tribulation. See Matt 24, Rev 7, Rev 14, Rev 15, Dan 12.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

matching what John said in Revelation to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. They agree.  I am glad you brought this up.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [When? Church age.]
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Everyone seems to skip over these words: what is Jesus saying here? He is NOT YET TALKING ABOUT END TIMES: meaning, he is still in the church age.]
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [Notice the preposition "For," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [The beginning of sorrows is CHURCH AGE.]
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [Notice the "Then:" it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [Finally Jesus mentions "the end." But he does not really get there until verse 15 with His mention of the Abomination: the very FIRST event of what we call "the end times." ]

All of it is end times. SEE REV 6.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note verse 7: this aligns with seal 2, the red horse and rider, CHURCH AGE. Note verse 7: Famines, pestilences earthquakes. Famines aligns with seal 3. Pestilences aligns with seal 4. And Jesus proves these are church age, exactly what Revelation (when context is observed) shows us. 

 

Just more imagination. The red horse is the horse of war. The horses are the 4 horseman of the apocalypse. Jesus is not the rider on the white horse in Rev 6. The rider is a false christ as proven EVERYWHERE.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Chapter 7 tells you about the 144,000 that are sealed sometime in the 1st 4 seals.   This is more myth. The sealing is between seal 6 and seal 7. The truth is, God had to break his vision after the 6th seal, because the 7th seal begins the 70th week.

 

The 70th week is the 1st 6 seals.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

TWO things must happen before that 7th seal officially starts the week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments and the CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven. CHECK! Both of these are accomplised AFTER the start of the Day of the Lord, but Before the start of the 70th week. (of course, you have to say this because of your misplaced days of GT.)

The 144,000 are ratured. See Rev 14. Rev 14 takes place in the seals. The wrath of God is over when the 7th angel begins to sound. Then we go back to the seals in Rev 12, 13, 14 and the 1st part of 15

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The great multitude includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes  Unless this can be backed up with clear scriptures showing any rapture of the 12 tribes. Paul tells us it will be those IN CHRIST who get raptured. Sorry, but the 12 tribes will not be "in Christ." they don't believe in Jesus as their Messiah.  What scriptures are you looking at?

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rev 14

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luke 17

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

²⁷ They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

²⁸ Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

²⁹ But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

³⁰ Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

That should be enough to get you started. You might want to understand what 1st fruits are. You might study the Jewish feast and you might put away the sledge and the imagination.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth of this great multitude is that they are all those IN CHRIST, both dead and alive, PLUS all the children at the time of the rapture. 

The great multitude includes the pretrib raptured Church and the pre wrath raptured 12 tribes across the earth. They are gathered from heaven and earth.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 8 Begins the wrath of God.  Finally! This is something I can ALMOST agree with. I think wrath starts at the 6th seal.

Lol, but we still can't agree. At the 6th seal, they see Jesus and know that wrath is coming. It comes when the 1st trumpet is blown after the 7th seal is opened.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal  No, go back and read: it is the Day of the Lord that starts there. The 70th week has not even started. (it is marked by 7's) Why were the 144,000 sealed after the 6th but before the 7th seal? Simple: the 70th week and the time of Jacob's trouble starts at the 7th seal. The trumpets start the 70th week. The midpoint comes at the 7th trumpet, proven by those in Judea fleeing seconds later. Further proven by John's 5 mentions of the last half of the week (1260 days, 42 months, etc) in chapters 11, 12, and 13.) I understand, anyone can make scripture fit any theory if they are willing to pull verses out of context. Like you, got to quit.

The 70th week is over with the coming of Jesus and the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. The trumpets start the wrath of God. The midpoint is bogus. People thing there is a midpoint because there is times, time and half a time. However, that event occurs after the week is over. The abomination of desolation happens towardthe end of the week 45 days before the coming of Jesus.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows. Here are the 1st four seals in Matt 24. Note that all these are the beginning of sorrows, not some of these, ALL THESE.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Yes, in Matthew all these ARE the "beginning of sorrows," but they are all tied to "the end is not yet." Jesus is not talking end times yet. 

And in Revelation they are tied to chapters 4 & 5 as their context, so both Jesus and John show us these are CHURCH AGE. 

However, you are tying "many come in my name saying "I am Christ" with the first seal. 

You cannot make that claim and back it up with scripture. The first seal is 32 AD. How in the world can that be the Antichrist? It cannot. It is 2000 years off. (THE END IS NOT YET!) Jesus tells us this is church age, and John shows us it is church age. 

I disagree with you. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

As I said, your points have not legs to stand on. The Church is in heaven in Rev 5. You can dance around the facts all you want, but it's not going to change what is written.

So SHOW US the church in heaven in Rev. 5. Sorry, but 24 elders WON'T WORK. There is no proof whatsoever they are even related to the church. Then you would also have to show in 1 Thes, 4 & 5 that Paul's rapture would relate to this time. That is impossible, because Paul's rapture does NOT relate to this time. 
 

So your theory has NOTHING to stand on by human imagination. Paul's rapture comes just before wrath. Wrath starts at the 6th seal. This is in black and white and easy to see. The huge crowd in heaven, the raptured church, is seen in heaven right after this as further proof.  These are the written facts; so no need to dance. The dancing is all done on your side. You are basing this ENTIRE THEORY on the 24 elders. My friend, that is a very shaky basis for a theory to stand on. It is only imagination and poor English translations that lead people off on this tangent. 

For the rapture, we really have only what Paul wrote to start with: He is the one who got the revelation of the rapture. the large crowd seen in heaven is only added proof of Paul's writing.  You can point to the 24 elders all day, but there is simply NO PROOF they represent anything to do with the rapture or the New Testament. When we understand the context of those 24 elders: very early church history in the vision, it simply cannot represent the rapture. 

I would suggest your find out where we are NOT in the book. It is not difficult: work backwards and find the last event you know is future. Or work forward and find the last even you know is past and present. Are there people still being martyred? You know there are. And they are being added to the number already martyred. 

Rev. 6:11...until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed.

I counted 36 English translations that have this idea of a full number complete. And what does this mean in context? That judgment  -the day of judgment - or the TIME of judgment will not come until this full number has come in. If we follow John's chronology from early church to now, that full number has not yet come in.

What is the very next thing John writes? The start of judgment: the 6th seal.  We are IN the church age, and God is waiting for the FULL NUMBER of martyrs gets killed, and THEN JUDGMENT starts. 

The truth is, the church has been waiting at the 5th seal all this time. We are not at the time of judgment yet. 

Then when one understands that the rapture events will CAUSE a great, worldwide earthquake, that too points to the 6th seal. There is no earthquakes before that in Revelation. 

Therefore I disagree with your theories. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

The scripture says that there are 24 elders and they are speaking for others that are present. It has to be because there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. That is the fact and that is the scriptural support. No imagination is necessary.

Does it REALLY? Or is this just more of Light's imagination?  here are a few English translations of 5:9

ASV  And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

AMP  And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying, “Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

AMPC  And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

CSB   And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

CEB   They took up a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and by your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

CJB  and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation.

I could post maybe 2o more that would say the same thing. 

IS IT TRUTH that with Jesus blood He purchased all the righteous from all time on earth? Yes, of course it is true. it is written that He reconciled THE WORLD to Himself. 

WHAT THIS VERSE DOES NOT SAY: there is nothing that says "are present." that comes from your own imagination, trying to make the bible say what it really does not say. You imagine the rapture has taken place, so it fits to imagine they are present.  But when we add the TIMING of the context, it doe snot fit: you would have the rapture at the start of the church age! Theories must be prove with every end time passage. Yours just does not pass the test. 

What about the TIMING of this? 

I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Ask the question, WHEN was Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, and the Lion of the tribe of Judah - when was He NOT worthy to open the seals?

The answer is simple, before He PREVAILED over death. So the TIMING John is giving us here is before Christ rose from the dead!  I must go.