Being a watchman is not fun. ?

[JohnR7]

1 minute ago, angels4u said:

This verse is about Israel,not the Church ( born again believers)

Everything God did with Israel He is doing with the Church today. Of course we do not follow leviticus in a literal sense. There is not even a temple there to follow in a literal way. This all has symbolic meaning. Everyone understands that. Some people use the word archetypes. Now they are starting to use the word Paradigm. The Bible refers to shadows and types.  You would make the Bible null, void and of no effect. 

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, Gideon said:

Brother, I shared much that shows that the current church is failing miserably in comparison to the early church. You simply do not want to admit it. Do you honestly think the body today is as healthy as in the early church? 

I fully understand why there is resistance in the body of Christ to admitting lack. But at some point, as the skies become darker and the temptations greater, the shakings will have their desired effect on God's own. They will seek God's face afresh so that they can walk in full obedience, pleasingHim rather than pleasing themselves. If we judge ourselves, we will not be judged. However, if we refuse, confessing we have need of nothing, and all is well with our souls even as sin and self love still run rampant, our blindness shall increase. 

Do we not see? Hearts hardened by continued sin and refusal to admit need will prove themselves to be tares. At present, all grow together, but the day comes when the two shall be finally separated. A great falling away is coming, as the righteous awaken and begin to shine in holiness.

The key question is ..... do we hate OUR life, our continuance in sin,  our inability to truly do those things that are pleasing in His sight? Refusing to examine ourselves does not reduce our guilt. it magnifies it. 

blessings, 

Gideon

Quote

I shared much that shows that the current church is failing miserably in comparison to the early church

The current church (building) is not the bride of Christ ,the born again Christians are the Bride of Christ .

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.…1 Peter 2:9

I have no clue of how you can judge born again Christians of not being Christians,do you really think I am not living for the Lord ? Do you believe me if I tell you that I'm saved by the blood of the Lamb and have eternal life?

 

 

 

 

[angels4u]

3 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

Everything God did with Israel He is doing with the Church today. Of course we do not follow leviticus in a literal sense. There is not even a temple there to follow in a literal way. This all has symbolic meaning. Everyone understands that. Some people use the word archetypes. Now they are starting to use the word Paradigm. The Bible refers to shadows and types.  You would make the Bible null, void and of no effect. 

Do you believe that the church replaced Israel?

[choir loft]

On 8/29/2020 at 11:57 AM, Gideon said:

Was the Laodecian church a church of God's children or a church full of tares?

David, we are told plainly that in the last days, because sin shall abound,  the love of many will wax cold. That word is not "phileo", human love, but "agape", the love only. Christians can experience. One cannot fall away unless they had once "fallen toward". 

I fear many err in thinking that somehow God sees us through Jesus covered glasses. Do we  not realize judgement will begin at the House of God? He sees the true intent of our hearts, does He not? Are we merely after forgiveness and securing our place in Heaven, or is there a deep hunger in us  to lose our lives, our wills, and to glorify Him by our doing those things that please Him? 

Do we  not realize that tares do not presently know they are tares? But when they hear the exhortation  to 'examine themselves whether they be in the faith', when they read the verse that urges them to make their calling and election sure, they blindly refuse to do so, and thus give satan opportunity to deceive them further. 

God is awakening us to satan's devices, and wants to equip us in preparation for what is coming. My sole desire is that His children hear the call of the Spirit and seek His face for full deliverance from their old nature, for it is only in that place where we will find true safety.

blessings,

Gids. 

re: Revelation 3

The letters to the churches of Revelation were addressed TO THE ANGELS that supervised or administered the churches.   Read the scripture again.   The figures of candle sticks represent spirits.  

Congregations and the angels that administered them are each addressed differently.  Each church had an angel that supervised its religious life.  Each angel was commended or warned about its performance of duty.  Read it.

With regard to the Laodicean passage, leaders of the post-protestant church deliberately ignore the actions of church angels in a leadership position.   Instead they use the example of Laodicea to argue for greater donation$ and inspire members to greater and greater investment in support of their financial mismanagement of church funds.  Congregations of the post-protestant church are fed a diet of guilt by human leaders who always have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

Read the Bible in Revelation 3.   God is warning the angel of Laodicea, not the congregation.   The passage is a spiritual insight into God's concern over His flock.  Revelation is basically suggesting that the angel of Laodicea has botched the job and that the Lord Himself will intervene on behalf of the human congregation.   At the conclusion of the passage, Jesus promises He will stand at the door of the hearts of the congregation and knock.   Those that open their hearts to Him and receive Him will be ministered to directly by the Son of God.

References to TARES are generally made in the gospel of Matthew and refer to Final Judgment.   The letters of Revelation are a reference to angelic church management and the congregations they were appointed to serve.

This is not a unique situation.   In most of the Old Testament, God reveals the issues He has with religious leaders appointed to manage the congregation of believers.   They too botched the job.   Many of the OT prophets spoke for God when He promised to roll up His sleeves, come to Earth, and do the job personally.    One of the names given to Our Saviour - Emmanuel - means 'God with us'.

hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[choir loft]

12 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

"If man is purely evil and cannot repent, then he cannot possibly obey God's command to repent." - Ben Perry"

Daa...no kidding!  that's the whole point about predestination....no one can come to God (Jn. 6:44).

In every single verse in which God commands "all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30..."follow these decrees" Dt 26:16..."keep His laws" 1Kings2 or even " choose you this day whom ye will serve" Joshua 24:15, God knows that only those whom He has chosen to Salvation will be able to do these things.

He commands each and every person that was ever born to obey his commands because we are all accountable to Him, being made in His image. Sin hasn't changed man's responsibility to come to God.

Either you didn't understand the intent of the quote I shared or you have deliberately skewed its meaning.   Either way I repeat the assertion.

If man cannot repent, then even a Calvinist is damned to perdition.   No one can be saved according to Calvinist ideology. (except Calvinists, of course)

Most logical people would interpret this attitude as religious exceptionalism - not indicative of the mercy and justice of God as revealed in the context of the Bible.

Your statement that "god knows only those whom he has chosen to salvation will be able to keep his laws" is unsupported.   There is no body of scripture or context making such a suggestion.   Instead, many passages are misinterpreted to justify Calvinists in their belief that only THEY will be saved.   Additionally, Calvinist ideology deliberately misinterprets passages to justify their hatred of JEWS by suggesting that JEWS, the ONLY people the Bible says are chosen, are NOT justified.  This is anti-semitism in any book one wishes to consult and any attitude one wishes to dispassionately examine.  It is hate language of the meanest sort and not in agreement with Biblical context.

Calvinist hatred of JEWS, as well as anyone who doesn't join their ranks, is historically accurate.   John Calvin, author of the heresy of predestination, was admittedly anti-semitic.   It is reflected in his ideology.

According to the Bible, JEWS ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD.   OT prophesy and NT documents tell us that God invited gentiles to join the family of His chosen people (see Acts & Hebrews as well as the entire Torah) - the JEWS - as a matter of choice even as He invited JEWS to choose to join Him. 

You wrote that "Sin hasn't changed man's responsibility to come to God".  On the other hand, you insist that sin prevents all men from doing so.   WHICH IS IT?

You cannot argue one idea and deny another. 

You cannot accept the dogma of Total Depravity of Man and say SIN has no effect at the same time.   This is the root of Calvinist confusion.   Such an ideology is more concerned with labeling their own members as saints and EXCLUDING everyone else than it is in determining the breadth and depth of the mercy of God as well as man's inherent ability to accept it or reject it. 

Your TULIP is actually Lucifer's lettuce.  

Calvinist hatred does not serve anyone except those who think they are better than everyone else.  It only alienates those who might otherwise seek God's mercy and love and compassion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited August 31, 2020 by choir loft

[choir loft]

39 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I perceive that you along with many other Christians are uncomfortable with the thought that God is actually in control of who He saves, as opposed to waiting and wondering who's going to "choose"  Him.

Let me try to explain further in a few short words. If Jesus Christ did not pay for the sins of His people ( which would include non Jewish people as well since there aren't two plans of salvation) then no one would be able to go to Heaven.

God, in His foreknowledge has chosen many individuals before the world began knowing that the whole human race would fall into sin because of our disobedience in the garden.

If our sins are paid for then at one point in our life (maybe even at birth) we will come to Christ through the effectial drawing of the Holy Spirit.

We take no credit. That's why salvation is a gift from God...

We don't give ourselves a gift do we? We receive the gift because He has made us "meet to be partakes of the inheritance of the saints in light"  (Colossians 1:12)

"meet" strongs #2427 : "to enable, that is qualify"

Your many assertions are based upon misinterpretation of Biblical text - very convenient to support a bogus theory.

You refer to two plans of salvation, which there are not.  JEWS are God's CHOSEN people, not Calvinists.   The Bible indicates none other than Jews are chosen.  

God's Word states those who are saved become Jews by adoption (or by being 'grafted into the true vine').  Read the book of Hebrews among others.  Post-protestants and those who are comfortable with their peculiar form of religious exclusivity (like Calivinists), generally disregard entire books of the Bible to justify their heresy.  Jews are not included in THEIR plan of salvation, hence there are two or more ideologies suggesting alternate ways to please God.

Moses declared (read Deuteronomy) that the LAW of God isn't too difficult OR BEYOND REACH.  Calvinists insist Moses was entirely wrong about things and therefore rewrite the Bible to their own satisfaction.  

If God already elected those who are to be saved, then why bother to evangelize?  A typical Calvinist response would be to say, "because He told us to do so".   They disregard their own logic, because if predestination was the rule then NO amount of evangelization would succeed.  The opposite would also be true if one assumed evangelization is unnecessary.   Calvinists would all be saved anyway.  (Just Calvinists, btw, everybody else can go to hell.)

If God predestines everything, then there is no point in praying about anything, anybody or any situation.   Calvinists insist we are all cogs in the galactic machinery and are basically unimportant - except again for Calvinists who assert THEY are the important ones.

If God predestines everything, then God created SIN.  The author of wickedness is thus more heinous than satan and more unjust than any human villain that ever walked the earth.

If God predestines everything, then there is no such thing as randomness.  (Research that one, why don't you?)

The list goes on, but despite my attempts at validating truth Calvinists will simply bury their heads in the sand and ignore what everyone else in creation already knows.  God has granted choice to mankind.

Foreknowledge does not imply predestination.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

PS  Predestination can also be argued against Calvinism.  God might have predestined their error and judgmental ways.  Because they have invented the god of SIN, they have embraced a lie and are thus all consigned to be predestined to the SIN of religious bigotry and exceptionalism.  Calvinists might forfeit eternal life simply because they're predestined to reject the truth.  [I don't believe this rubbish because I'm not a Calvinist, but if Calvinists accept the logic of their heresy, then they must admit the possibility they are predestined to believe a lie.)

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by choir loft

[choir loft]

12 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated : "Your statement that "god knows only those whom he has chosen to salvation will be able to keep his laws" is unsupported.   There is no body of scripture or context making such a suggestion.   Instead, many passages are misinterpreted to justify Calvinists in their belief that only THEY will be saved"

1) I'm not a Calvinist. I do not follow the teachings of Calvin, only the Bible ( I guess you could say that I am a "Bibleist")

2) There are many verses that teach that only those who were chosen or given to Christ by God the Father will keep His laws/ commandments/ word. The first verse that came to my mind was John 17:6 :

" I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gravest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gravest them me; and they have kept thy word."

It is the sanctification of the Spirit (which has nothing to do with us) that will allow us to come to God.

 

There are two reasons Calvinists are wrong about predestination.   First is their false interpretation of scripture and second is the Bible itself.  Take a look:

INTERPRETATION

Once again we read Calvinist heresy applied to a verse that means something completely different.   John 17:6 is misinterpreted to imply predestination, which it in no way suggests.

In this passage Jesus is referring to His disciples.  Jesus' disciples were JEWS, not goyim.   Not Central European students of John Calvin (who hated Jews).   Not arrogant American post-protestant religious types. 

If we take the verse literally, as you insist, then ONLY JEWS are predestined for salvation. 

Again, if you insist upon taking the verse to literally represent THE CHOSEN people then YOU MUST accept the Bible's statement that Jews are THE CHOSEN PEOPLE and no other.  Where are Calvinists mentioned in the Bible?   Nowhere at all.

But as I've pointed out before, Calvinists are at heart anti-semitic creatures and reject the idea that God should pay any attention to JEWS whatsoever.  They reject JEWS as THE ONLY chosen people and substitute themselves.   Again as I've pointed out earlier, it's a form of religious exceptionalism.   According to their demonic dogma a Jew could be saved if he or she joined the membership of a Calvinist church (salvation by works).

Back up a minute and take a wider view of the whole picture.  The entire section from 17:6 through and including verse 19 is a prayer by Jesus to the Father on behalf of His disciples.  In verse six we are told Jesus' disciples are  magnificently blessed because they "received the words You (the Father) gave Me (Jesus)".   This statement alone is in compliance with the context of salvation presented throughout the Bible.  

Those that receive Christ and His word are blessed with salvation and illumination by the Father through Him (Christ).  The spiritual principle of FREE WILL is presented over and over again as indicated by the gospels and epistles.  According to Biblical context, divine justification applies even to gentiles (non-Jews) who accept Christ and His Word.  It's also a principle of human politics that absence of free will is evidence of authoritative oppression of the human spirit. (Some people like that sort of thing - most don't.)

BIBLE ITSELF

The American Presbyterian church, which is predominantly Calvinist, sends delegates at regular intervals to a national convention.   The purpose of the convention is to decide matters of administrative and theological application to its members throughout the country.   The following statement was told to me by a man who was one such delegate to a recent convention.

Some years ago the Presbyterian convention voted on a -revised- definition of the Bible.  At issue was the revised statement that the Bible wasn't simply "THE WORD OF GOD", but "A word of God".   The exchange of a simple word "THE" for the simple letter "A" was spiritually significant.  Here's what it meant.   If we state that the Bible is THE Word of God we are affirming divine inspired origin for its words.   On the other hand, if we state that the Bible is A word of God, we are stating that the Bible is a work of human literature of no greater or lesser importance than any other book that assumes spiritual origins (and there are quite a few).   The Presbyterian convention voted to accept the CHANGE of definition from THE to A, thus denuding the Bible of divine authority.   Let me repeat that statement.  Presbyterians, by roll call of vote, DENUDED the Bible of divine authority.

The man who related the news to me said that storm clouds had been gathering on the horizon all afternoon.  When the vote was taken with regard to Biblical authority the vote was tabulated on an electronic display for everyone in the room to see.  Moments after the vote was tabulated and displayed (to declare the Bible lacking in divine authority) a horrendous lighting bolt struck a nearby power line and threw the entire venue into darkness.   (A year later a fellow who attended a Lutheran conference told me about a similar event.  The same issue was presented with the same vote result.  A tornado suddenly stretched out of the sky above them and ripped the steeple off the large church where they were seated.  He showed me a photograph of the damage as proof.)

[If the reader is searching for a definition of the term "post-protestant Christian" there can be found no better example than the above testimony.)

Therefore, ACCORDING TO CALVINISTS THEMSELVES, the Bible they quote for their heresy HAS NO AUTHORITY AT ALL.   Therefore they are clinging to a lie of their own making.  When Calvinists quote the Bible they are not only misinterpreting the Bible, they are quoting something they don't believe as authoritative in the first place.

This is called hypocrisy in any dictionary you may wish to consult.

FINALLY

Calvinists are not unique among people who twist Biblical verse to their own ends.   Read verse 15.  This one is a direct statement that the rapture, as INVENTED by the Catholic church in 1590 and again by American protestants in the mid-1800s is FALSE.  There will be NO rapture as imagined by evangelicals.   Do they cling to Biblical verse or do they deny it and formulate their own idea?  They create their own idea about rapture even as Calvinists suppose verse six refers to them and them alone.

If you believe the Bible as THE Word of God, then you must accept the CONTEXT of the entire work as stating God has given mankind FREE WILL to accept His Word.   If we do, then God manifests His blessings to us in many ways, not least of which is eternal life.

Read the Bible - THE Word of God.   Read ALL of it, not just the snippets that justify your hatred of JEWS or your simplistic fantasy that believers will be beamed off the earth when things get dicey.   Has God not promised He will be WITH US in all difficulty?  Why then would He remove us from it?   Faith is made strong in weakness and tribulation.   God wants strong believers who accept His word and live by it.  Anyone who thinks he or she will be beamed off planet in the near future is believing a lie.  btw, the same End Times doctrine is applied to a 2nd holocaust against JEWS.   More lies and more hatred.   Will God save such folk?  

That's up to Him of course, but I strongly suspect there will be some sort of reckoning involved in the process - but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 4, 2020 by choir loft
correction of dates and punctuation

[bornagain2011]

It is hard to stand up against the things I'm seeing in my church. I know I get made fun of for not being cool or fun. It is very discouraging. 

How can those in leadership call things gray areas or "not sin" when I see it as sin or too close to sin to be appropriate? They want the church to looklike the world to bring the kids and teens in. I don't agree with it so I'm left out of the loop and not invited to anything, even though my desire is to serve the teens and disciple them.

Would this make me a watchman? Or just a trouble maker trying to cause division? I'm not rude about it, I just usually say "what does this have to do with the Lord? How is this bringing glory to the Lord?", they say "it's not a sin and it's fun for the kids and brings them in".

I am becoming disheartened. 

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, bornagain2011 said:

It is hard to stand up against the things I'm seeing in my church. I know I get made fun of for not being cool or fun. It is very discouraging. 

How can those in leadership call things gray areas or "not sin" when I see it as sin or too close to sin to be appropriate? They want the church to looklike the world to bring the kids and teens in. I don't agree with it so I'm left out of the loop and not invited to anything, even though my desire is to serve the teens and disciple them.

Would this make me a watchman? Or just a trouble maker trying to cause division? I'm not rude about it, I just usually say "what does this have to do with the Lord? How is this bringing glory to the Lord?", they say "it's not a sin and it's fun for the kids and brings them in".

I am becoming disheartened. 

I would say that you're called upon to be a servant of the Lord, @bornagain2011.

Never weary of doing good, my friend. Speak of those things which are fit for the exhortation of all remembering the words of the apostle Paul to Titus, his child in the faith. What you're witnessing is widespread in the churches of our day, representative of what I consider to be "churchianity." The Lord said we may judge a tree by the fruit it bears. 

Are you constrained to remain where you are by the Spirit of God? Then you should stay bearing witness to what is good, true, lovely and altogether worthwhile. Pray for their sake that the Lord might convict the worldly of the truth, bringing them to godly repentance. Never forget that in spite of "churchianity" there are some to be found therein who seek the Lord and the example of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness you bear  --- these are the fruits of the Spirit against which there is no law --- is light to illuminate their way through darkness. 

Pray to the Lord that He will direct your path so you might serve others according to His will, sister. When we pray according to God's will He is faithful to hear and grant our petition. When the leaders come and request your departure, grant their desire confident that the time has come for you to leave.    

Edited September 4, 2020 by Marathoner
typos

[Heleadethme]

On 8/29/2020 at 5:53 PM, JohnR7 said:

There are those that follow the commandments given for the levitical priesthood. Then there are those that believe in a higher calling to follow the Melchizedek Priesthood. 

That's an interesting thought, thank you.  I seem to observe that most believers after coming to Christ, start out like Israel, serving God in sincerity but still largely in the flesh and under tutelage to the Law and letter of the word.   But then we need to grow as children grow and become "you who are spiritual"....spiritual maturity, and eventually the full stature of Christ (His Bride) will be seen in His people.  We grow more as we become aware of our need and lack, seeing ourselves in the mirror of His word and with the Lord helping us to see as He reveals more of the dark corners of our heart with His light......and then we seek Him for what we don't have  (hungering and thirsting for righteousness) and straining for what lies ahead.  Those who remain complacent and self-satisfied are in danger of falling away according to Hebrews 6, because those who are not mature are easily deceived and blown by every wind of doctrine.  

A strong delusion will be given to all who received not a love of the truth.....love of the truth is simple honesty....being without guile like the Israelite Jesus commended....being honest with ourselves and with God about our areas of lack and falling short of His glory.  We like so much to think well of ourselves,  but that is the trap of the religious elite of Jesus' day who sought to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to the righteousness of  Christ.  Most of us have further to go than we realize.  I dont' think we can afford to be complacent in the last days especially....Jesus is coming for a grown-up Bride, so it's time to put the enjoyments of childhood behind and get on with the serious business of being conformed to the likeness of Christ.

1Co 13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 14:37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 2:15

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 3:1

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Gal 6:1

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Heb 6:1-6

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God………

…………For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.