is the pre trib rapture a false hope?

[WowLookaDuck]

6 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

The pre-trib rapture is incorrect. "In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer . . . "

Is there any reason to suppose that what you've quoted doesn't simply means what it says? That we will experience tribulation in the literal sense of the word? 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

the resistance put up by the saints will block it until the saints are taken out the way.

This might have some elements of reality attached. Do not assume Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem. Do not assume the '1000 years' are literal. Assume little and study much. And watch.

Added: do not assume a 7 year anything or the MOB. Do not assume anything since this stuff has been dissolved in the very water that believers have drunk for centuries now. All this 'prophecy talk' that is peddled might be a giant red herring to keep folk focussed on bad stuff  (and their skins) and forget the great commission.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Billiards Ball]

12 hours ago, WowLookaDuck said:

Is there any reason to suppose that what you've quoted doesn't simply means what it says? That we will experience tribulation in the literal sense of the word? 

No. I've studied the issue from all sides extensively, and heartily recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Calendar-Steven-Sherman/dp/1579215874

 

[enoob57]

The structure of Revelation is best understood in a pretribulation view... in fact for those who seek the literal meaning of Biblical text will station themselves on a pretribulational view .... thus making the pretribulational view the most fundamental aspect of a strict interpretation of Scripture ... 
https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/pre-trib-rapture

[enoob57]

On 8/8/2020 at 2:26 PM, pawz said:

I have been a believer in a pretrib rapture for all of my Christian life - many years - and for the past twelve have been watching daily for our Lord's return.  A few days ago I came across the passage in Rev 20 where it says that those that are beheaded and  who did not take the mark of the beast are the ones that live and reign with Christ for a thousand years and that theirs is the first resurrection - which sounds like the rapture to me, which means, if that is so, that  we have to wait at least another three and a half years for the Lord's return and have to go through the tribulation. The rest of the dead do not come back to life until the thousand years are gone. I really want to explain this away but I cannot. Can you help?    

Rev 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

John 'And I saw thrones' is representative of of the church:

This is the total subject matter in Revelation
Rev 1:19

19 Write the things which *thou hast seen, and the **things which are, and the ***things which shall be hereafter;
KJV

John had witnessed the entire ministry of Christ and was there at the cross when Jesus died and we find his obedience to the *thou hast seen... Gospel of John and His epistles 
His present situation on Patmos and the Church's sufferings of the **things which are... Revelation 1:20- 3:22
John as the representative of the Church and it's rapture
 

Rev 4:1-2

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, ***and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
KJV
 

So when you read in Rev 20:4  'And I saw thrones' That's us the Church already in Heaven witnessing what the verse is speaking of- it is not necessary to add us in Rev 20:4 as we are already there...

[JohnD]

On 8/8/2020 at 2:26 PM, pawz said:

I have been a believer in a pretrib rapture for all of my Christian life - many years - and for the past twelve have been watching daily for our Lord's return.  A few days ago I came across the passage in Rev 20 where it says that those that are beheaded and  who did not take the mark of the beast are the ones that live and reign with Christ for a thousand years and that theirs is the first resurrection - which sounds like the rapture to me, which means, if that is so, that  we have to wait at least another three and a half years for the Lord's return and have to go through the tribulation. The rest of the dead do not come back to life until the thousand years are gone. I really want to explain this away but I cannot. Can you help?    

It's not one seven-year tribulation but two 3 and a half - year tribulations:

There is a tribulation  /  the war of the devil against God (the Saints)

There is a Great Tribulation  /  the wrath of God on Satan and the world.

The PRE-Great Tribulation rapture occurs after the satanic tribulation of the saints:

Revelation 13:7–10 (AV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

But before the wrath of God is exacted on everyone on Earth, the few saints that actually survive to this point will be raptured out. The wrath of God was poured out on Jesus on the cross as far as the saints are concerned. He will not pour out his wrath on us again.

It occurs to me this is why he turns unrepentant saints over to satan to destroy their bodies that their spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord... God will not pour out his wrath on anyone who believes in the genuine Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (AV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I advise against testing the Lord's patience to this point.  The devil would not be easy on people he hates as much as he hates God. Word to the wise.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:51 AM, WowLookaDuck said:

Is there any reason to suppose that what you've quoted doesn't simply means what it says? That we will experience tribulation in the literal sense of the word? 

Yes that tribulation means also the sufferings of those who desire to live Godly, as happened to Paul : 

2 Timothy 3:11 my persecutions, and the sufferings that came upon me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra. What persecutions I endured! Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.…

The wise virgins who keep their oil in the wordly tribulation shall be taken to the Feast of the Lamb.

But the foolish virgins who run out of the oil due to the desire and tribulation of this world shall be left behind.

Matt 24:40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.…

[Jedi4Yahweh]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:49 AM, Traveler said:

There is the tribulation we will get from the world and then there is the great tribulation that comes from God directed towards this world. The saints will be out of here before the great tribulation but that does not mean that we will not face the worlds tribulation.

The saints are only seen in heaven at the end of the sixth seal. That means we will be here for the fifth seal. Lots of head chopping during that time but at the same time we will be ascribing our salvation to the word of our testameney and faith in the blood of the Lamb.

It is only when the Jews are gathered later that they are accredited as having to overcome the mark of the beast. Yes there will be attempts to bring the mark in before the rapture but the resistance put up by the saints will block it until the saints are taken out the way.

No the bible says the beast will overcome the saints...

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Rev 13:5-8 KJV

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; ... And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. - Dan 7:21, 25 KJV

Edited August 16, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[JohnR7]

On 8/8/2020 at 3:26 PM, pawz said:

theirs is the first resurrection - which sounds like the rapture to me

The rapture and the resurrection are different and they are two different words in the Bible.  All believers are raptured when they die. This is when they become separated from their body. At the resurrection the Body itself will be raised up. There is a resurrection at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ when there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.  The belief is the actual elements that make up our Body will be Glorified. 

I believe the Church Age is 2,000 years. Then we will have the Kingdom Age or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. 1/3 will be saved but there is also a remnant that is 10%. There is a lot of teaching about a 7 year tribulation period between the church age and the kingdom age. I am not sure how well supported that is in the Bible.  The Church age began on the day of Pentecost in what I tend to believe was the year 29 Ad. We do not really know for sure when Pentecost was. 

The rapture is when people are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There is talk about when Jesus returns and His feet touch the ground at Mount Sinai. This is when the east is separated from the west and the north from the south.  We know there are continental plates at Mount Sinai and this is an event that could happen anytime.  As there was an earthquake there when Moses received the 10 commandments. 

This does not answer all of your questions, but some of them.  For those who have their part in the resurrection, the resurrection power of God is already at work in them to prepare them for that day. 

[Wesley L]

On 8/9/2020 at 9:11 AM, pawz said:

I held the hope that in our redeemed bodies WE would be the sons of God Romans 8 refers to and that creation would be set free by us - such a wonderful way to serve the Lord; bringing the world back into the healed state, ending suffering and pain, setting  it, the people and the animals free from the suffering endured in THIS world. v23 is where I stood, waiting with eager longing for that adoption and redemption so that the task of healing the world  could be begun through  us as the sons of God creation looks for. That will still happen, but my dismay at realising that premillenialist expectations will not be met and we still have at least several years before the Lord might return is hard to take.

Rom 8:19  for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; 
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope, 
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. 
Rom 8:23  And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting—the redemption of our body; 

I held the hope that in our redeemed bodies WE would be the sons of God
Aren't we already the sons of God, through faith in Jesus Christ?

and that creation would be set free by us
We are the creation that has been set free by faith in Jesus Christ.

that the task of healing the world could be begun through us
Aren't we healed through faith in Jesus Christ? Our old self died and born again by the Holy Spirit? Giving us a new life, new desires to follow Christ? 
Jesus commands us to share the gospel. That is the way God wants us to be part of the healing. This is how God began the healing of the world through us.

Also read Romans 8 verses 18, 24 and 25.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

God promises you a candy. And you can't wait, you want it now?
God will give you your candy when He wants to. His timing, His will be done.
Believe that God has already confirmed you receiving your candy. Don't be impatient towards the Lord.

P.S. My personal opinion. God's words never frustrates a believer. Misunderstanding of God's words does.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Wesley L