JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[douggg]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It is in fact undeniably VERY much about sin. 

It is NOT a salvation apart from sin! The entire eschatology is drenched in the existence of sin. 

Hebrews 9:28 means that Jesus is coming, not for the purpose of dying for our sins, but for salvation - from physical destruction.

 

1Thessalonians5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Edited January 26, 2021 by douggg

[DeighAnn]

 Israel becomes a nation once again.  





PLEASE READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER ALSO DEUT 28
TRUTH
 

Leviticus 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

A TIME BEING 360 YEARS SEVEN TIMES IS 2520 YEARS.  BANISHED FROM THE LAND OF PALESTINE AND SCATTERED AMONG THE HEATHEN

Leviticus 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Leviticus 26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.

Leviticus 26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

Leviticus 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

Leviticus 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

Leviticus 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

Leviticus 26:37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

Leviticus 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

Leviticus 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Leviticus 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Leviticus 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.


THEY ENTER THE PROMISE LAND.  They obey. They get their earthly king.  Saul appointed, removed because of sin.  God appoints David (tribe of Judah), David reigns 7 yr over House of Judah then 33 over all Israel.  Solomon becomes King, starts to sin against God causing the the 13 tribes to sin.  GOD DIVIDES the kingdom into TWO kingdoms.  Northern and Southern.  Still the people went deeper into sin WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT THE PROMISE OF GOD. 

BASICALLY ASSYRIAN TOOK NORTHERN KINGDOM CAPTIVE,  2 KINGS 17:6-18 AND 18:11.  (FEW TAKEN TRIBES 2 KINGS 15:29).
200 years or so later
SOUTHERN TRIBE DOESN'T LEARN FROM THAT AND THEY ARE REMOVED TO BABYLON 2 KINGS 24:1-4  24:11-14.  THIRD INVASION 2 KINGS 25:1-12 FINAL REMOVAL FROM PALESTINE 2 KINGS 25:22-26.  

NO MORE ISRAEL.  

1948 ISRAEL BECOMES NATION AGAIN - 2520 YEARS PUNISHMENT  takes us right back to when the tribes we last taken into captivity

Not all the tribes were taken captive at the same time.  History records a difference of many years between them.  

But here is something many would find interesting to know.  

First Israel tribe into Assyrian captivity was Manasseh 745BC.  
EXACTLY 2520 YEARS LATER ON JULY 4, 1776 AMERICA BECAME A NATION.  ONE NATION UNDER GOD

EPHRAIMs capital Samaria taken 721 BC.   
EXACTLY 2520 years later GREAT BRITAIN BECAME A COMMONWEALTH
JAN 1, 1801.  

BENJAMIN LAST ONE TAKEN AND EXACTLY 2520 YEARS LATER ICELAND BECAME A NATION.  



 

Jeremiah 24:1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

Jeremiah 24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Jeremiah 24:3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

Jeremiah 24:4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Jeremiah 24:5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

Jeremiah 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

Jeremiah 24:9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

Jeremiah 24:10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

None requiring another temple be built. None requiring the re-institution of Levitical practices. None requiring the blood of goats and cows. It is a works-based salvation. 

It gets obscured by the idea ancient, Biblical, and/or covenant Israel is restored. It is not restored. The modern nation bears little resemblance t Biblical Israel and you have yet to prove otherwise. Rhetorical questions do not an affirmative case make. They waste time and evidence an inability or unwillingness to make the affirmative case.

Are you even reading my posts?

you attribute things to me that I have not said that I believe.

You are making assumptions about me that don't exist.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Why not post stop asking rhetorical questions that do not actually prove your position and instead post an affirmative case? 

You call the questions that I ask rhetorical, so that you don't have to answer them.

The questions are not rhetorical, they are to be answered by YOU.

You won't answer because you know that the answers will PROVE YOU WRONG!

Answer the questions, if you can.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

That's what is asked of you. That is all that is asked of you. That is what has not happened. 28 pages. 

You have only posted on this thread since pg 18, so it hasn't been 28 pages for you.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Modern Israel is not a restoration of Biblical Israel. There are very specific attributes of Biblical Israel and the modern country does not meet those criteria. It is an Israel in name alone. It may perhaps one day in the future meet those criteria but until it does it is not Biblical Israel restored. 

And you all should stop acting otherwise. 

Or you should prove it restored and not just some not-so-close approximation with the same name. 

I have shown you over and over, but you keep ignoring and by passing the scriptures that I have given you.

What is your answer to the scriptures in Romans that I posted about Israel after the flesh being under grace?, you just ignore them without response.

[abcdef]

51 minutes ago, Josheb said:

That would be incorrect. 

Scripture shows a new temple was already being built; a third temple. A third temple that meets the criteria of prophesy. John 2:21 and 1 Corinthians 3:16. 

Yes, some prophecy, but not all.

 But, the broken branches flesh Israel is still under grace.

Yes, the kingdom/church is Israel, Jew and gentile, but there is also the unbelieving broken branches that are grafted back in, God is able to graft them in again.

 Your argument that the Jew and gentile kingdom/church, ended the grace towards the flesh unbelieving branches forever is not confirmed, considering the scriptures in Romans 12:23, 25, God is able to graft them in again.

You say no? That He is not able?

Is the flesh of Israel under the grace of God or not?

Don't pretend that the questions are rhetorical to avoid answering them.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Do you understand that verse?

Heb 9:28

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Do you understand the dispensational views of Christs millennial coming are explicitly ad inherently in regard to sin? If so then do you understand you've just undermined your own position even as you tried to rhetorically prove it? 

Whether we say Jesus did or has yet and will come a second time for a salvation apart from sin that qualification, "a salvation apart from sin," necessarily preclude the tribulational rapture-theologies commonly asserted in Christian eschatology boards and those adherents do so oblivious to the inherent contradiction they are posting. This is all the more true when thigs like a third temple, a return to Levitical order, or animal sacrifices are part of the eschatology because all of those things have now been rendered annulled, antiquated, and fruitless. They are sin. These futurist views teach the world is going to go to hell in a handbasket and the Church is apostate and the Church is ineffective, the gospel isn't going to be victorious prior to the world self-destructing, or satan having his way and the Church needing rescue and an earthly rule to extinguish all that corruption. 

It is in fact undeniably VERY much about sin. 

It is NOT a salvation apart from sin! The entire eschatology is drenched in the existence of sin. 

Huge internal contradiction.

And it's also a nice red herring. It does not in any way prove modern Israel is a restoration of Biblical Israel. That's what is currently asked of you.

I know this, 2 Tim 2:18, "Who concerning the truth have erred,saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

Is that what you are saying? That the resurrection has past already? Or is it future?

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1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Romans 11 explicitly states, "at the present time..." It says absolutely nothing about the 21st century. At the "present time" of Paul's writing a remnant was being prepared. At that present time the relevant prophesy of Elijah was being fulfilled. Nothing in any of the verses you just cited about the 21st century.

Go back and re-read it as objectively as you can. 

Yes this "present time" was in Paul's time. But it shows that the flesh broken branches are still under grace.

You appear to say that the grace ended after 70 AD and that the broken flesh branches disappeared forever.

Yes?  or   No?

------

What about the other scriptures that I offered, you do not respond to them.

 

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

. That salvation occurs before he comes: he comes to rapture but never touches earth and then he comes again to judge and destroy -

...and also to save the Jews in Jerusalem from physical destruction in Zechariah 14.

 

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Fail. Hebrews 9:28 was not written by Jews (at least not OT unregenerate Jews ). Hebrews 9:28 was not written to Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was not written about Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was written by a Christian to Christians about Christians. 

One of the most frequently occurring errors in exegesis is the taking of scriptures written by Christians to Christians about Christians and applying them to non-Christians. 

It's a bad practice in and of itself. 

When it is combined with bad application of the Old Testament it is not better; it is worse.

I disagree.  Hebrews was written by Paul more so than anyone, a Christian Jew from the tribe of Benjamin.   Addressed to the Hebrews.  

You say it was written by a Christian but that does not negate it being written by a Jew.  You say it was written to Christians which still doesn't negate it being written to the Jews.  

[DeighAnn]

40 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Fail. Hebrews 9:28 was not written by Jews (at least not OT unregenerate Jews ). Hebrews 9:28 was not written to Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was not written about Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was written by a Christian to Christians about Christians. 

One of the most frequently occurring errors in exegesis is the taking of scriptures written by Christians to Christians about Christians and applying them to non-Christians. 

It's a bad practice in and of itself. 

When it is combined with bad application of the Old Testament it is not better; it is worse.

So who wrote it?

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5 hours ago, Josheb said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with the modern state of Israel. Any Jew anywhere qualifies as a broken branch needing grace. There's nothing about that specifically pertaining to any modern geo-political nation-state, much less modern Israel.

If you are looking for a scripture that says that in 1967 Israel and Jerusalem will be restored, there isn't one.

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

The premise modern Israel is a restoration of Biblical Israel has not been made.

Not everyone is wise enough to recognize that Jerusalem is restored to the people of Israel, fulfilling Lk 21:20-24, 24.

The trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles ended in 1967, not 70 AD. The trampling continued after the city fell for centuries.

That is proof for me that Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

---

The artificial requirements that you have produced in your mind are not valid. No where in the Bible does it say that your requirements are necessary for Israel's restoration as a national entity.

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

I'm gonna move on now but before I do I read in one of the posts your comment I hadn't answered or addressed a specific matter but I cannot find either that comment or the original question so before I go I will answer that one specific question if you wouldn't mind reposting it.

Well you didn't look very hard since there are many.

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

However, I must remind you that my answer is irrelevant. This is not my op. It is not my onus to prove this op; that is your job. My answer may or may not speak satisfactorily to your inquiry but that is not evidence your view has any veracity. As I have repeatedly stated: you could prove X or Y wrong and still not prove your own position correct and I have in fact, repeatedly and undeniably asked for the case asserted be made. My request is presuppositional. You can't have a restored Jerusalem without a restored Israel and the case for a restored Israel has not been made.

The requirements that you state are without merit.

No where in the Bible is it said that the borders of a restored Israel must be as stated in Ex 23:31.

No where in the Bible does it say that a restored Israel must have a king.

No where in the Bible does it say that a restored Israel must be a theocracy.

You are only saying that "you think" that a restored Israel would be that way. 

You might as well say that Israel had no cell phones, so to be restored as they once were, they must get rid of their phones, or cars, or airplanes.

So your argument that Israel is not restored because they don't meet your artificial requirements is without substance. 

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

The modern state is not a restoration of the Biblical state except in name alone.

Sorry, but there are Christians there, Jews there, and Christians who were Jews.

Jews control the national government, have control of Jerusalem, and are the dominate people of that state.

Your argument that Israel is not restored us useless.

It's there.

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

If we're still gonna rely on a restored Israel then we're all gonna have to wait awhile longer because this Israel is not it.

There are enough indicators in the NT to say that Israel will be restored to Jerusalem.

After 1900 years, there is an Israel in control of Jerusalem, and you say, "No, this can't be it", but it is.

You are in a state of denial, ignoring what the reality is right in front of you.

It reminds me of when Jesus was on earth.

They said, "This Jesus can't be the Messiah", but He was.

They said, "These miracles can't be real", but they were.

They said, "He can't rise from the dead", but He did.

"It can't be a spiritual kingdom", but it is.

And now it is your turn, you say, "This nation of Israel that is in control of Jerusalem, can't be Israel restored", but it is, right in front of you.

 

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

1967 is irrelevant. Much more than possession of the city is needed for an actual restoration to have occurred.

In your mind, but not in the Bible.

The restoration is complete when the people of Israel are in control of Jerusalem. Lk 21:24.

That is all that is necessary.

 

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Ask me your question and I'll attempt an answer. 

Pure preterism is easily destroyed with just a few verses.

Was every prophecy in the Bible completely fulfilled by 70 AD? Is that your position?

Is that you position concerning the restoration of Israel?

That it will NEVER be restored to Israel as an actual material city?