JERUSALEM IS FALLING

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1 minute ago, Alive said:

This is a mouthful. Can you show how this is with scripture?

Good luck with that and I don't mean that unkindly. End time events have been taught by a great many a great many ways---all can't be right and yet all can be wrong.

The details would fill books. I have explained a lot on this thread already. 

The Revelation is not one continual timeline. It repeats the same time line over and over again. Basically, 37 AD when Israel rejected the new covenant until Jesus comes for the kingdom, with time line variations starting and finishing.

Understand this, The 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and the fire from heaven Rev 20, are all the same event,

They are showing the fall of restored Jerusalem, the second coming for salvation resur/rapt, and the fire from heaven end of this planet.

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If you would review this thread to start, it would be easier for me thanks.

I would be glad to share any details that you are interested in.

 

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Your statement here, sounds like you are prophesying. Perhaps you aren't, but what will you say when things don't happen as you are predicting?

I have been wrong and changed my mind about things before.

I am always open to learning more about Jesus from others.

And you may be right, that I don't have everything right, but I am learning more all the time.

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Here is the problem, if you see a car coming you say, "Look out".

I see Jesus coming, and I am saying, "Look up".

The signs are there, the pieces are falling into place, and the prophecies of Jerusalem and the resurrection are happening in front of us.

It is just that people have looked at things for so long in a certain way, that they are not ready to develop a different viewpoint, a timeline adjustment.

This kind of thing takes time and a lot of thought, years. Identifying the entities and timelines has been distorted by many views.

But when everything falls into place, the time lines, the entities and their actions, then it is a time for alarm, time to blow the trumpet.

This is the time to blow the trumpet. Jesus is coming, He will be here after Jerusalem falls.

The Bible shows this and can be explained, although it takes time,

But there really isn't much time left. 10 Years?, possibly months, when ever Jerusalem falls.

 

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Perhaps its better to couch these things in different terms--like, I think or maybe or I think maybe and this is why.

Yes, yes, true, true.

But there just isn't time left.

Just look at the Middle East, tell me how long it will be before Jerusalem falls.

It is coming, then Jesus will come for the kingdom, and eternity will begin.

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1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No, I said the statement is not true. If you have difficulty separating your self from specific statements then perhaps we should discontinue the conversation. 

Partial-preterists do not read all images as fulfilled in 70 AD. That is a fact of partial-preterism. 
Full-preterist do read everything prophetic all already fulfilled. That is a fact of full-preterism.
No one in this conversation is a full pret.
Therefore the statement is non sequitur to the conversation. 
Any attempt to treat partial-preterist perspectives (we are not monolithic) identically as full-prets is a straw man. 

Those are the facts. They are not personal. Neither are the accusations. 

You may take them as such but they are not, and neither are they intended as such. 

No, it does not. This is a very common mistake. 

Are you Arminian in your soteriology? If so would it be fair of me to treat you like a Pelagian? No? Then why do you do that to preterists who are not full-preterists and do NOT believe all the images are the 70 AD destruction? 

If you can understand the difference then you can repair the conversation. 

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

If not then it was over before it began and now realizing that fact I'll move on.

You promised to do that before and didn't.

Maybe you'll do it this time.

[Biblican]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

And I asked you to prove it. 

None of which requires us to think any of it is relevant to modern times. The city of Jerusalem of his day did in fact suffer an egregious tribulation. So severe was it that in the end the city laid in ruins and from then on was no longer God's city of peace; its typological significance had ended. 

And then what we now call the canon ended.

Immaterial; you could prove preterism wrong and still not prove your position correct. Don't know why there's difficulty getting past that fact. 

No, you do not.

That statement is laughably absurd given the contents of these many posts. If Jesus' words were taken at face value then "this generation" would not be twisted into "That generation that sees these things happen". The posts in this op undeniably prove that claim false

The temporal markers of Matthew 24 prove most of what he was referring was Jerusalem contemporary to his day and they prove his words are not taken at face value.
The audience affiliations prove he was speaking about the Jerusalem of that time would see and they prove his words are not taken at face value. 
His comparative us of other scripture prove prophesies were coming true in his era and they prove his words are not taken at face value. 
The implicit urgency with which he spoke proves he was speaking about the Jerusalem of that day and they prove his words are not taken at face value. 
The use of the city allegorically by the epistolary proves the Jerusalem of prophesy is not merely the physical city and they prove neither Jesus' words nor those of the apostles are taken at face value. 

Jesus said the apostles in attendance would see those things. I take those words as written, plainly, stated, plainly read - at face value. You do not. 
Jesus said the events described would come upon "this generation," not "that generation." I read those words as written, plainly stated and plainly read - at face value. You do not. 

The narrative in which that one chapter occurs is a narrative covering a single day in the life of Jesus and the apostles, the day after he first entered Jerusalem that covers about six chapters. The words of chapter 24 are inextricably and directly related to words spoken in the previous chapter. It is always bad exegesis to speak of that chapter alone or apart from the larger narrative in which it occurs. 

 

You were doing fine until you made it about you. You do NOT take Jesus' words at face value. Your posts are filled with highly interpretive use of scripture.

Preterist nonsense.  Jesus'  discourse was in direct response to His disciples' question about  the signs that would be before His second coming and He told them. "That generation"  He is referring to is the generation that is in existence directly before His return and the disciples living at that time would be able to discern the signs He is talking about. The prophecy concerning Jerusalem is a duel prophecy. While Jesus is speaking directly about the tribulation that would occur just before His return, it is also meant to be a foreshadow of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. In other words when that event happened we are to view it as a foreshadow of another attack on Jerusalem before Jesus' second coming.

Revelation was written 25 years after Jerusalem's destruction in 70AD as John was suffering under the persecution by Domitian which places it at that time frame. In Jesus' instructions to the seven churches He promises the Philadephians that they will be kept from the "Hour." That "Hour" is mentioned in Rev. 14, which refers to the tribulation that Jesus prophesied of in Matthew 24, an event that obviously occurs in the future long after Jerusalem's first destruction.

[Biblican]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

And yet not a single word I actually posted has actually been shown incorrect. By anyone here. 

You can complain about my posts all you but until you post an impeccable alternative your own position lack veracity. Stop playing on the defense and show up with an affirmative case for what you believe. 

What you have written has been shown to be grossly incorrect, you just can't see it because your mind has been preprogrammed by Preterist nonsense. As I have said before, when anyone who prefers the precepts of man above the word of God as you have done, will come under a judgment from the Lord, the mind is veiled and you cannot see the truth of the scriptures anymore. (Isaiah 29:13,14). This is why people in the cults have such a difficult time seeing the truth because they have committed the same error. Preterism is a man made doctrine that was designed to protect the Pope from being accused of being the antichrist. That same doctrine is being promoted today for the same purpose. It is  a totally unbiblical doctrine. If just one scripture contradicts it, and there are many, then it should be rejected. The apostle Paul warned Timothy not to teach any other doctrine other than what was delivered by the apostles. For that reason alone Preterism should be rejected by any serious disciple of the Lord Jesus.

[Biblican]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Irrelevance nonsense. You can prove preterism wrong and still not prove your position correct. Frustrations with other models does not change the facts in evidence.

Ad hominem noted and treated accordingly. 

 

You let me know when you're ready to discuss this topic in a polite, well-mannered way that sticks to the topic and not the posters.

 

 

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It's impossible to discuss the subject with you because you do not recognize the holy scriptures as the final authority. Therefore when I present the word of God that contradicts what you are teaching it can't change you because your mind has been preprogrammed by man's philosophy. This is a common pattern and consistent with people who  prefer the precepts of men above God's word. You've read too many other books.

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On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Biblican said:

Preterist nonsense.  Jesus'  discourse was in direct response to His disciples' question about  the signs that would be before His second coming and He told them.

The signs were mainly about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the time when Israel is scattered among the gentile nations, and the restoration of Jerusalem.

Jesus came with Roman armies, but it wasn't a resurrection coming, that has yet to happen.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Biblican said:

"That generation"  He is referring to is the generation that is in existence directly before His return and the disciples living at that time would be able to discern the signs He is talking about.

I think that the generation was that of the apostle John, not some generation 1900 years later.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Biblican said:

The prophecy concerning Jerusalem is a duel prophecy. While Jesus is speaking directly about the tribulation that would occur just before His return, it is also meant to be a foreshadow of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. In other words when that event happened we are to view it as a foreshadow of another attack on Jerusalem before Jesus' second coming.

Matt 24, Events,

Events before the destruction of 70 AD ish Jerusalem. Wars etc.

The surrounding and destruction.

The time after the destruction, the tribulation period, the times of the gentiles, 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored.

The call to leave the gentile nations and restore Jerusalem.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Biblican said:

Revelation was written 25 years after Jerusalem's destruction in 70AD as John was suffering under the persecution by Domitian which places it at that time frame.

Yes

 

On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Biblican said:

In Jesus' instructions to the seven churches He promises the Philadephians that they will be kept from the "Hour." That "Hour" is mentioned in Rev. 14, which refers to the tribulation that Jesus prophesied of in Matthew 24, an event that obviously occurs in the future long after Jerusalem's first destruction.

Rev 3:10, There is no scriptural attachment between the "hour" and the trib period.

The "hour" could only be fulfilled by that congregation in that time period.

The prophecy could not be fulfilled by any one else.

 

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See, look, listen,

The War of Armageddon has begun, it's just in it's early stages. It will soon end with the Battle of Armageddon which Israel will lose and Jerusalem will fall.

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Israel is losing international support. The will to defend Israel is diminishing. Things are happening in the U. S. that are giving power to those who hate Israel.

Soon, Israel will be alone. Then Iran will become bold and attack with their allies, Syria, Russia, Lebanon, and others.

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Because some are so set on their time line, that they don't see it coming. 

Iran is the kings of the east. They are attacking now.

They are attacking according to the events shown in the 6th trumpet, the 6th vial, and the end of the mill period.

The Rev time line is not consecutive, it is broken in many places. It shows the same time over and over. This is why pretrib doesn't see it coming.

The 6th trumpet has armies crossing the Euphrates.

The 6th vial has armies crossing the Euphrates.

The end of the mill has Jerusalem surrounded.

Only with a broken repeating time line can some one understand that Jerusalem is restored and about to fall.

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These things are happening now, not some time in the far future.

 

[Biblican]

On 2/23/2021 at 11:05 AM, abcdef said:

The signs were mainly about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the time when Israel is scattered among the gentile nations, and the restoration of Jerusalem.

Jesus came with Roman armies, but it wasn't a resurrection coming, that has yet to happen.

 

I think that the generation was that of the apostle John, not some generation 1900 years later.

 

Matt 24, Events,

Events before the destruction of 70 AD ish Jerusalem. Wars etc.

The surrounding and destruction.

The time after the destruction, the tribulation period, the times of the gentiles, 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored.

The call to leave the gentile nations and restore Jerusalem.

 

Yes

 

Rev 3:10, There is no scriptural attachment between the "hour" and the trib period.

The "hour" could only be fulfilled by that congregation in that time period.

The prophecy could not be fulfilled by any one else.

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Preterism can't be supported unless the scriptures are twisted to accommodate it.

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6 hours ago, Biblican said:

We will have to agree to disagree. Preterism can't be supported unless the scriptures are twisted to accommodate it.

Biblican, thanks for responding.

The view that everything was fulfilled by 70 AD is wrong, I agree.

But that doesn't mean that every single thing that is taught is wrong.

It is the specifics that need to be talked about to clarify the issues.

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You and I both seem to agree that this present Jerusalem will fall. You may say that it is half way through a 7 year trib, future to us.

I want to say that it will happen presently, without the resur/rapt happening first.

I believe that the resur/rapt happens 3 1/2 days after this present Jerusalem falls.

Since we probably agree that it will fall some time soon, it is only some circumstances surrounding the event that we may disagree on.

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Look at the events that precede the fall.

The 6th trumpet for example. Do the images match up with our present time?

That it might be showing armies crossing the Euphrates?

And if the armies are beginning to be headed for Jerusalem right now,

Can you say that it is possible, that 3 1/2 years from now, Jerusalem may fall?

What are your thoughts about the 6th trumpet and the fall of the present day Jerusalem?

 

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On 1/14/2021 at 12:21 PM, Biblican said:

I have to disagree with your assessment of the trumpets referring just to Israel. Those judgments are upon the entire planet, Gentiles and Jews.  Also if you are going to say that the Jews are the kingdom of God and they are raptured, that is only if they have received the Messiah Jesus. Otherwise they will have  to be left behind, because only the saved are raptured. I hope you don't ascribe to Cyrus Scofiled's flawed theology that the Jews are saved because they have a covenant with God.  That doctrine was not taught by the apostles. If you want my perspective on Revelation it is here  https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html

I'm sorry that I forgot, that you told me about your book.

I went and read the parts on the 5th and 6th trumpets.

I do agree with a lot with what you say. I am pleased to see that you are not quite following the traditional pretrib timeline.

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You understand that the locusts of the 5th trumpet are symbolic images and not "bugs".

May I suggest that they are false prophets, Rev 9:10, Isa 9:15.

The "horsemen" of the 6th trumpet in Rev 9:19 are also false prophets.

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Your perception that the events of the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial are happening now are correct.

Since you understand that the Rev is sometimes symbolic images (locusts), the events will become clearer as the images become more defined.

When you do define them, it will confirm what you believe about some current events. When you finally realize what is happening, it will be sweet and bitter, with increasing knowledge, comes increasing sorrow. Just prepare yourself for the bitter, it is hard.

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Try thinking of the possibility that the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial are describing the same event. Try the experiment, of placing the details that describe both events together, into describing one event.

An army crossing the Euphrates River to attack .....who? .....Jerusalem, which is restored to the control of the people of Israel (1967). This is a common element of the two events. 

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I'm not disagreeing with you, I am agreeing.

It's just a matter of continuing to defining the symbols and images in the timeline.