JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

And what if they are in conflict with what other sincere brethren declare that God has taught them?

I have asked and asked for "them" to tell us God's words to them. No one has answered. It seems they did not hear words. I wonder then HOW God taught them.  Human imagination can cause people to imagine things.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Untold millions disagree with your theory.

Billions of people do not believe in God.

Billions of people believe in a different god than the God of Israel.

1.1 billion Roman Catholics believe that we are not Christians because we do not recognize the Bishop of Rome and his authority over the spiritual kingdom of Israel.

If there was a vote, we would lose most of the time, if not all of the time.

If you believe something just because everybody does, it's kind of being like a lemming.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

In truth, so does the book of Revelation.

We may not agree, but the questions and studies are worth it.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No one has EVER shown when each trumpet judgment came, because it is future, not past. Trying to find each one in history is an effort in futility: impossible. They did not happen back then.

The trumpets begin in 70 AD and end when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet resurrection.

The 6th trumpet has already blown 20 years ago, 9/11/2001. The result of the trumpet blowing was the end of the power in the Euphrates region (Iraq), that kept Iran (the kings of the east) from attacking restored to Israel Jerusalem.

When Jerusalem falls the 7th trumpet will blow and this planet ends in fire.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, Jerusalem did fall in 70 AD, but it was not the AoD - at least not the one that will happen some time on the future,

The future, imminent, fall of Jerusalem is not going to end like the 70 AD fall where the people of Israel were scattered into the gentile nations. This imminent fall will happen as described in Rev 11, the enemies of Israel will send gifts to each other and celebrate.

Then the resur/rapt will happen after 3 1/2 days, and then this planet ends in fire.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

AFTER the first 6 trumpet judgments, which will, without much doubt, include a nuclear exchange somewhere in the world, and probably against Israel.

The Rev is about the people of Israel and Jerusalem. The rest of the planet is secondary.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Who has ever said that the presence of God would be in this new temple? I have never heard anyone say it.

If this future temple, is just a building like other buildings, say like a church building, how is that an abomination? I mean there are people who declare themselves as god or Jesus often in cults (Jim Jones) in buildings.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

In truth, the only presence of God in the temple back then, was when Jesus entered it!

I'm going to disagree with you on this. Where the people were worshiping in the temple, God's presence was there. When you assemble and worship, you believe God's presence is there, with you, within you. Wouldn't it be the same for Israel when they worship? The presence of God in the temple was greatly diminished when the Ark was taken and the temple destroyed, but when the temple was rebuilt the presence was there in the people, but greatly diminished.

Why would Jesus be so angry and "cleanse" the temple if it were only a building like any other? John 2:13-17.

John 2:16, "And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

  But He never went into the Holy of Holies.

He was from Judah not Levi. But He did enter into the heavenly Holy place Heb 9:12.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 God left the temple in the days of Ezekiel.  

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I am sure they created a new curtain or sewed that one back together.

The curtain represented the Law of Moses. When Jesus died the period of the Law of Moses ended and would could not be restored.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

There will be a new temple built. There will be daily sacrifices started again. But they will be stopped when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies and declares he is God.

What is happening, is that you are trying to make the exact same circumstance happen again, just as they happened in the 30 AD-70 AD time period.

But they are already fulfilled 1900 years ago.

Think about it, rebuild the temple, start the Law of Moses over again, the AoD, the destruction of Jerusalem, the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations, the people taken as captive slaves, it already happened years ago.

Separating the prophecies that speak about the 70 AD destruction and the future imminent fall just before the resur/rapt, defines the future event. 

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

But in the 3.5 years before that, the world will see the first 6 trumpet judgments come, exactly as John has written them.

The 7 times are not 7 years. The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

How could anyone miss a nuclear exchange?

Show me the scripture that shows a nuclear exchange.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

How could anyone miss stinging locusts that hurt so bad people try to kill themselves?

Apparently a lot of people. Because they are not literal bugs. They are images of men, false prophets who speak against the people of Israel. Rev 9:10, Isaiah 9:15.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

How could anyone miss the heavenly army that will kill 1/3 of earth's population?

Because again, they are images of men, false prophets who speak against the people of Israel. Rev 9:19, Isa 9:15. They are now beginning to cross the Euphrates River to attack Jerusalem.

It is not the population of the planet, it is the people of Israel.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, trying to make Revelation history is MYTH. 

Trying to make the Rev almost all future, is protecting the ROMAN beast Antichrist from identification as the beast.

The beast nation and the Antichrist have been here for 2000 years.

They are the iron nation of the statue in Dan. 2, that begins in 63 BC when Rome invades Israel and continues without any breaks in the timeline until the toes end when Jerusalem is restored to the people of Israel in 1967.

We are living in the time between the end of the toes and the stone striking.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The rest of your post is quite like this part. You and I will disagree until we arrive in heaven. We read these scriptures differently. 

Well, understand that the final events of the Revelation are happening right now in front of you.

Jerusalem is surrounded, the kings of the east from across the Euphrates River are coming to take Jerusalem, the Roman Antichrist/false prophet has already deceived the nations, and the support for Israel is diminishing.

You are waiting for many things to begin, but are not recognizing that you are at the end, just before the 7th/last trumpet, the 7th vial, and fire from heaven.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

As for the 42 months of trampling, I agree, it is not written that the man of sin arrived in Jerusalem. God told me that. But then, no one can disprove it either. 

Jesus speaks to us through the Bible. Any other source is questionable.

[iamlamad]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:13 AM, abcdef said:

Billions of people do not believe in God.

Billions of people believe in a different god than the God of Israel.

1.1 billion Roman Catholics believe that we are not Christians because we do not recognize the Bishop of Rome and his authority over the spiritual kingdom of Israel.

If there was a vote, we would lose most of the time, if not all of the time.

If you believe something just because everybody does, it's kind of being like a lemming.

 

We may not agree, but the questions and studies are worth it.

 

The trumpets begin in 70 AD and end when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet resurrection.

The 6th trumpet has already blown 20 years ago, 9/11/2001. The result of the trumpet blowing was the end of the power in the Euphrates region (Iraq), that kept Iran (the kings of the east) from attacking restored to Israel Jerusalem.

When Jerusalem falls the 7th trumpet will blow and this planet ends in fire.

 

The future, imminent, fall of Jerusalem is not going to end like the 70 AD fall where the people of Israel were scattered into the gentile nations. This imminent fall will happen as described in Rev 11, the enemies of Israel will send gifts to each other and celebrate.

Then the resur/rapt will happen after 3 1/2 days, and then this planet ends in fire.

 

The Rev is about the people of Israel and Jerusalem. The rest of the planet is secondary.

 

If this future temple, is just a building like other buildings, say like a church building, how is that an abomination? I mean there are people who declare themselves as god or Jesus often in cults (Jim Jones) in buildings.

 

I'm going to disagree with you on this. Where the people were worshiping in the temple, God's presence was there. When you assemble and worship, you believe God's presence is there, with you, within you. Wouldn't it be the same for Israel when they worship? The presence of God in the temple was greatly diminished when the Ark was taken and the temple destroyed, but when the temple was rebuilt the presence was there in the people, but greatly diminished.

Why would Jesus be so angry and "cleanse" the temple if it were only a building like any other? John 2:13-17.

John 2:16, "And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."

 

He was from Judah not Levi. But He did enter into the heavenly Holy place Heb 9:12.

 

 

The curtain represented the Law of Moses. When Jesus died the period of the Law of Moses ended and would could not be restored.

 

What is happening, is that you are trying to make the exact same circumstance happen again, just as they happened in the 30 AD-70 AD time period.

But they are already fulfilled 1900 years ago.

Think about it, rebuild the temple, start the Law of Moses over again, the AoD, the destruction of Jerusalem, the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations, the people taken as captive slaves, it already happened years ago.

Separating the prophecies that speak about the 70 AD destruction and the future imminent fall just before the resur/rapt, defines the future event. 

 

The 7 times are not 7 years. The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

 

Show me the scripture that shows a nuclear exchange.

 

Apparently a lot of people. Because they are not literal bugs. They are images of men, false prophets who speak against the people of Israel. Rev 9:10, Isaiah 9:15.

 

Because again, they are images of men, false prophets who speak against the people of Israel. Rev 9:19, Isa 9:15. They are now beginning to cross the Euphrates River to attack Jerusalem.

It is not the population of the planet, it is the people of Israel.

 

Trying to make the Rev almost all future, is protecting the ROMAN beast Antichrist from identification as the beast.

The beast nation and the Antichrist have been here for 2000 years.

They are the iron nation of the statue in Dan. 2, that begins in 63 BC when Rome invades Israel and continues without any breaks in the timeline until the toes end when Jerusalem is restored to the people of Israel in 1967.

We are living in the time between the end of the toes and the stone striking.

 

Well, understand that the final events of the Revelation are happening right now in front of you.

Jerusalem is surrounded, the kings of the east from across the Euphrates River are coming to take Jerusalem, the Roman Antichrist/false prophet has already deceived the nations, and the support for Israel is diminishing.

You are waiting for many things to begin, but are not recognizing that you are at the end, just before the 7th/last trumpet, the 7th vial, and fire from heaven.

 

Jesus speaks to us through the Bible. Any other source is questionable.

The 7 times are not 7 years. 

We are given time, times and half of time twice in the book of Daniel. Most Evangelical believers today take that to mean half of 7 or 3.5 years. 

If Daniel was all we had, other theories may have half a leg to stand on. But we have MUCH more: John gave is the same time three different ways to make sure we understood it to be the time of half of 7 years:

42 months of Trampling, 42 months of authority, both countdowns running simultaneously.

1260 days of testifying and 1260 days of fleeing, both running simultaneously. 

Together that is 7 verses all saying virtually the same thing: a time of 3 1/2 years (360 day prophetic years) or half of one seven from Daniel 9:27. 

So you are willing to disregard 7 verses on the subject and just make a bold statement that the 7 times does not mean years. 

Can you see why I disagree with most of what you write? We read the scriptures differently. 

Jesus speaks to us through the Bible.  That is ONE WAY Jesus speaks to us. We are to be lead by the Holy Spirit. One way the Holy Spirit leads is by speaking to us through words, visions, dreams or the most often used, the "inward witness:" a knowing inside by the Holy Spirit.  

Paul got the gospel he preached and by which we will be judged by revealed knowledge, not by the written scriptures.

Again, I disagree with every statement. We read these scriptures differently.

By the way, when I say millions I am speaking of bible believing, bible studying, dedicated believers in Jesus Christ.

Added later: Jesus told Peter and the disciples that the church would be built "upon this rock..." which rock was "revealed knowledge." Peter had knowledge revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah. 

As time has passed, more and more knowledge of the meaning of scriptures has been revealed.

Edited April 16, 2021 by iamlamad

[abcdef]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

I have a question and it applies to everyone who reads Revelation in these days:

When you read it and developed an understanding of what you think it means, did you do so in a vacuum--or had you been exposed to an interpretation prior, during and since?

Jesus, the apostles, and the early kingdom/church had only the OT scriptures and no NT letters combined into what we have today.

The letters of the NT are enveloped by the OT scriptures. That is, the letters of the NT are best understood if they are seen as being the extensions of the OT imagery and definitions. 

An example might be the letter of Hebrews. "Paul" expands and explains the imagery of the OT scriptures, the sacrifices and ceremonies, and their revealed meanings. Heb 9:23, 11:10, 12:22.

This OT imagery should be applied to the Revelation, which many people have in different places to different degrees.

The faithful woman of Rev 12, the unfaithful harlot of Rev 17, the beasts, all are OT images of people and nations.

The misunderstanding comes when this pathway is abandoned for modern definitions.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

What was it that you were exposed to that guided your current understanding?

Someone once asked me, "How many resurrections are there?"

The answer is 2. 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

1. Jesus and the OT saints. (Also see Rev 20:4-5)

2. Good and evil, those who are his at the resur/rapt., the second resurrection.    (Also see Rev 20:5 & 9)

3. Death is destroyed. (Also see Rev 20:14)

4. Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father. (Rev 21:2, The kingdom souls transformed by God new Jerusalem, is seen coming down from the Father)

5. Father is "All in All". (Rev 22:3-4)

Five events that form an unbreakable timeline as given by Paul. Not to be taken away from or added to, 2 resurrections.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

I think these are largely rhetorical questions, but I think we can all agree that there has been some influence that was used as a starting place when studying ourselves.

Over the years many people have written down what they believe. The matter of truth can only be measured by the scriptures.

But the circumstances of the writers of the past clouded the glass darkly. Each one saw glimpses of the truth, but they did not have access to our modern timeline viewpoint.

The main question that went unanswered until our time was, "Will Jerusalem be restored to the people of Israel?" 

The answer, "Yes", places a definable placement in the time line of 1967. Before this time it was a matter that was thought to be impossible.

The 1967 fulfillment date allows us to define the timelines in a way that could not have been done in the past.

It is then just a matter identifying the images in the Revelation with the restoration of Jerusalem. That would be the armies crossing the Euphrates River to attack Jerusalem at the 6th trumpet and 6th vial, and the Rev 20 surrounding of Jerusalem event.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

That being the case, doesn't it make sense to investigate where that came from and just how it came about, who, why and in what context.

Yes, but that really doesn't matter. It only matters if it is the truth or not.

2 hours ago, Alive said:

So let's say there was a starting point that one bases their understanding on. If that starting point is false then is it possible that everything that follows is askew or even very wrong?

Start with the OT, that is truth.

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21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 7 times are not 7 years. 

Yes, that is what I am saying. 

Brother, this will take some time and thought.

Have you considered at all that it could be that the 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2? Really thought about the possibility that it could really be that time period that the statue represents?

2 time periods of 3 1/2 times each? 

Try using the statue of Dan. 2 as the 7 times, as a starting point in your perception of the timeline. The iron legs and toes are Rome for most of the second 3 1/2 times.

----

Dan. 12:7, You have a choice of two probable meanings of the 3 1/2 times used in this scripture.

1. The most commonly accepted meaning,

The 3 1/2 times is years and about 2500 from the captivity in Babylon the people of Israel will be scattered in to the gentile nations half way through a 7 year time period.

2. The 3 1/2 times is not literal years, but represents the time from the captivity in Babylon until the great scattering of 70 AD. (The second 3 1/2 is from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The Revelation is centered on this second 3 1/2 times.)

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are given time, times and half of time twice in the book of Daniel. Most Evangelical believers today take that to mean half of 7 or 3.5 years.

You must assume that the times are years, because it never says "7 years" or "3 1/2 years".

Why wouldn't the text just say that it is "years"? Because the "times" are not "years".

The "times" are a time period set by God, that is not revealed to people.

The two 3 1/2 time periods are not equal length.

The numbers of the months and days used in the Rev are symbolic images of the 3 1/2 times. They are used to show that the images are describing the second 3 1/2 time period and not the first. 

 

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Yes, that is what I am saying. 

Brother, this will take some time and thought.

Have you considered at all that it could be that the 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2? Really thought about the possibility that it could really be that time period that the statue represents?

2 time periods of 3 1/2 times each? 

Try using the statue of Dan. 2 as the 7 times, as a starting point in your perception of the timeline. The iron legs and toes are Rome for most of the second 3 1/2 times.

----

Dan. 12:7, You have a choice of two probable meanings of the 3 1/2 times used in this scripture.

1. The most commonly accepted meaning,

The 3 1/2 times is years and about 2500 from the captivity in Babylon the people of Israel will be scattered in to the gentile nations half way through a 7 year time period.

2. The 3 1/2 times is not literal years, but represents the time from the captivity in Babylon until the great scattering of 70 AD. (The second 3 1/2 is from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The Revelation is centered on this second 3 1/2 times.)

 

You must assume that the times are years, because it never says "7 years" or "3 1/2 years".

Why wouldn't the text just say that it is "years"? Because the "times" are not "years".

The "times" are a time period set by God, that is not revealed to people.

The two 3 1/2 time periods are not equal length.

The numbers of the months and days used in the Rev are symbolic images of the 3 1/2 times. They are used to show that the images are describing the second 3 1/2 time period and not the first. 

Daniel 4:16  Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Daniel 4:23  And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Daniel 4:25  That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

 Daniel 4:32  And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

 Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 Daniel 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 Daniel 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

 Daniel 9…from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks = 62+7 = 69 weeks

 Daniel 9…²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off…  69 weeks are over

 Daniel 9…²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week…in the MIDST of the week…  Midst comes from a Hebrew word meaning to divide in half.

 By this date, several people have calculated the 69 weeks to be 69 weeks of years  - 360 day years. Sir Robert Anderson was perhaps the first. Others suggest he may have made mistakes and they “corrected.” The point is, all this proves that 69 weeks of years from the day the commandment was given to rebuild the walls and the temple, from that date adding 173,880 days came out to when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the colt, declaring He was their King.

Since that was so accurate, it makes good sense that the final or 70^th week be considered in the same way: a week of years or 7 years.

Since Daniel mentioned a division in half of the 7, and since 3 ½ years comes out to exactly one half of the 7, it makes very good sense to take the time, times, and half of time as time  = YEAR. Times = two years. Half of time = a half year.

 Do we have more information to add? Yes.

 Paul tells us that the man of sin will one day enter the Holy of Holies and declare he is God. This will defile the temple and the daily sacrifices must stop – exactly as Dan.  9:27 declared.

 Jesus then said that when those in Judea see the abomination, they are to flee for their lives.

 We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6 and associated with that a period of 1260 days. It is not a coincidence. If we take a week or 7 each of 360 day years, we get 7 times 360 or 2520 days total in this 70^th week. If we divide 2520 in half, we get 1260 days. None of this is a coincidence. God knows arithmetic . This verse in 12:6 shows us that verse is only seconds after the abomination event and the division point or the midpoint of the week.

 Do we have more information to add? Yes.

 Searching Revelation around chapter 12, we find 1260 days of testifying, 42 months of trampling, 42 months of authority, and anther using times: time, times and half of time the way Daniel wrote it. None of this is a coincidence.

 In summary then, we find Daniel using “times” to mean a year. The king would eat grass for 7 years. The final week would be for 7 years. Half of that week would be 3 ½ years given to us in days, in months and in years or times.

 With all this evidence, why would ANYONE imagine “times” to be hundreds or thousands of years?

What am I saying? We follow the scriptural clues and avoid using imagination.

Edited April 14, 2021 by iamlamad

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On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

The 7 times are not 7 years. 

We are given time, times and half of time twice in the book of Daniel. Most Evangelical believers today take that to mean half of 7 or 3.5 years. 

Sorry that I have to break up your posts and my responses due to time.

I'm trying to keep up with them, but the concepts are thought worthy.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

If Daniel was all we had, other theories may have half a leg to stand on. But we have MUCH more: John gave is the same time three different ways to make sure we understood it to be the time of half of 7 years:

42 months of Trampling, 42 months of authority, both countdowns running simultaneously.

Trampling, Rev 11:2, ".... : and the holy city shall they tread underfoot forty and two months." 

The gentiles controlled Jerusalem from 70 AD until 1967. This is the second 3 1/2 times.

Authority, Rev 13:5, " ... ; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

The beast nation of Rome ruled and persecuted the people of Israel for the last 2000 years. The same time as the iron nation in Dan. 2.

The 3 1/2 times includes most of that 2000 year period, not just the last 3 1/2 years.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

1260 days of testifying and 1260 days of fleeing, both running simultaneously.

Testifying/prophesy, Rev 11:3, In sackcloth of mourning, for ....... Jerusalem.

Fleeing, Rev 12:6, The people of Israel fled into the gentile nations in 70 AD.

===============

You understand that these examples that you gave are running simultaneously, then understand that the other timelines of the Rev are also running simultaneously with the 2 witnesses and the woman of Rev 12.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Together that is 7 verses all saying virtually the same thing: a time of 3 1/2 years (360 day prophetic years) or half of one seven from Daniel 9:27. 

The 70 weeks ended in 37 AD when Israel rejected the confirmed new covenant and the gentiles entered the kingdom.

The 70 weeks of Dan. 9 are completed and not involved in the 7 times.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

So you are willing to disregard 7 verses on the subject and just make a bold statement that the 7 times does not mean years. 

I didn't count 7, but the numbers are symbolic of a complete time set by God. 

Think about this, if it was literally "3 1/2 years" in Dan. 7:25 for example, why wouldn't it just say 3 1/2 years?  Why all the special language using times instead of years? (Because it is not years and never says 3 1/2 years or 7 years. The actual time in the years of men is not known until after the time is finished.)

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Can you see why I disagree with most of what you write? We read the scriptures differently.

Some scriptures we observe from different viewpoints.

What fun would it be if we all just agreed? Ha. ha.

I think that Jesus loves souls who delight in His Word. Maybe right or wrong, we all have faults, but it is what is in our hearts, a hunger for truth and righteousness. May we bring glory to Jesus in whatever we do.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Jesus speaks to us through the Bible.  That is ONE WAY Jesus speaks to us. We are to be lead by the Holy Spirit. One way the Holy Spirit leads is by speaking to us through words, visions, dreams or the most often used, the "inward witness:" a knowing inside by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is truth, all other feelings and knowledge are variant and questionable. We cannot even rely on our own mind not to deceive us, ask anyone who has been a sick enough to see things or imagine things in delirium. How do you know that your own mind is sound at all times?

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

  Paul got the gospel he preached and by which we will be judged by revealed knowledge, not by the written scriptures.

Well, Saul/Paul was highly educated in the scriptures before the event on the road to Damascus.

The revelation the he received was that the scriptures were speaking about Jesus.

  

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Again, I disagree with every statement. We read these scriptures differently.

By the way, when I say millions I am speaking of bible believing, bible studying, dedicated believers in Jesus Christ.

When Jesus and the uneducated fishermen apostles were here, the vast majority of the scripture believing, scripture studying, dedicated believers in Israel were against them. But see what has happened to the mustard seed.

Many great things start with one person. 

It is not the number of the ones who oppose you that matter, only the truth matters.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

Added later: Jesus told Peter and the disciples that the church would be built "upon this rock..." which rock was "revealed knowledge." Peter had knowledge revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah. 

Yes, the same type of revelation given to Paul on the road to Damascus.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 12:45 PM, iamlamad said:

As time has passed, more and more knowledge of the meaning of scriptures has been revealed.

Yes. The time for the final revealing is here. This includes the mysteries in the scriptures and their meanings.

But to understand their true meaning that has been previously hidden, sometimes, you must allow for a new viewpoint to be considered.

[abcdef]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Daniel 4:16  Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Daniel 4:23  And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Daniel 4:25  That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

 Daniel 4:32  And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

 Daniel 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 Daniel 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 Daniel 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

 Daniel 9…from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks = 62+7 = 69 weeks

 Daniel 9…²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off…  69 weeks are over

 Daniel 9…²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week…in the MIDST of the week…  Midst comes from a Hebrew word meaning to divide in half.

 By this date, several people have calculated the 69 weeks to be 69 weeks of years  - 360 day years. Sir Robert Anderson was perhaps the first. Others suggest he may have made mistakes and they “corrected.” The point is, all this proves that 69 weeks of years from the day the commandment was given to rebuild the walls and the temple, from that date adding 173,880 days came out to when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the colt, declaring He was their King.

Since that was so accurate, it makes good sense that the final or 70^th week be considered in the same way: a week of years or 7 years.

Since Daniel mentioned a division in half of the 7, and since 3 ½ years comes out to exactly one half of the 7, it makes very good sense to take the time, times, and half of time as time  = YEAR. Times = two years. Half of time = a half year.

 Do we have more information to add? Yes.

 Paul tells us that the man of sin will one day enter the Holy of Holies and declare he is God. This will defile the temple and the daily sacrifices must stop – exactly as Dan.  9:27 declared.

 Jesus then said that when those in Judea see the abomination, they are to flee for their lives.

 We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6 and associated with that a period of 1260 days. It is not a coincidence. If we take a week or 7 each of 360 day years, we get 7 times 360 or 2520 days total in this 70^th week. If we divide 2520 in half, we get 1260 days. None of this is a coincidence. God knows arithmetic . This verse in 12:6 shows us that verse is only seconds after the abomination event and the division point or the midpoint of the week.

 Do we have more information to add? Yes.

 Searching Revelation around chapter 12, we find 1260 days of testifying, 42 months of trampling, 42 months of authority, and anther using times: time, times and half of time the way Daniel wrote it. None of this is a coincidence.

 In summary then, we find Daniel using “times” to mean a year. The king would eat grass for 7 years. The final week would be for 7 years. Half of that week would be 3 ½ years given to us in days, in months and in years or times.

 With all this evidence, why would ANYONE imagine “times” to be hundreds or thousands of years?

What am I saying? We follow the scriptural clues and avoid using imagination.

Ok, so before I answer these on an individual basis, I will show that the 7 times and 3 1/2 times are not years, but images of a time period set by God that are not in this case literal years. We have discussed some of this before.

Rev 12, The woman is faithful Israel waiting to be delivered from sin and death by the Messiah and the new covenant, v 2.

The timeline anchor is set by the birth of Jesus. The images show the attempt to kill Jesus after He was born, v 4.

The attack on Jesus as an infant was carried out by the dragon, King Herod, which proves that the beast is Caesar and the Roman Empire city/state nation.  

The child is caught up to God, v 5, Acts 1:9, and to the throne of God.

After the ascent, the faithful Israel woman flees from the dragon, v 6, away from her home into the wilderness of the gentile nations.

How long is the faithful woman Israel in the gentile nations and not at home in Jerusalem? 1,260 days, that is exactly what it says.

-

But,..... We can see from history that the time of the great scattering after 70 AD is in reality about 1900 years and not literally 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years.

So the time of 1260 days is an image of a time far longer than the literal viewpoint.

The timeline anchor of the birth of Jesus and His ascension shows this fleeing from the Roman Empire beast nation to be generally in the 33 AD time period.

The fleeing of faithful Israel happened just 30 years ish after Jesus ascended. 

So looking at history, this proves that the great scattering happened in 70 AD ish and has continued for 1900 years, showing that the 1,260 days are not literal, but are only an image of a much greater time period.

-

The idea that there is a "gap" of 1900 years in the timeline between v 5 and 6 is something that is not indicated by the text.

This viewpoint completely ignores the 70 AD ish, scattering of the people of Israel and the 1900 years of persecution of the Roman beast that followed in the prophetic timeline.  

 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

Ok, so before I answer these on an individual basis, I will show that the 7 times and 3 1/2 times are not years, but images of a time period set by God that are not in this case literal years. We have discussed some of this before.

Rev 12, The woman is faithful Israel waiting to be delivered from sin and death by the Messiah and the new covenant, v 2.

The timeline anchor is set by the birth of Jesus. The images show the attempt to kill Jesus after He was born, v 4.

The attack on Jesus as an infant was carried out by the dragon, King Herod, which proves that the beast is Caesar and the Roman Empire city/state nation.  

The child is caught up to God, v 5, Acts 1:9, and to the throne of God.

After the ascent, the faithful Israel woman flees from the dragon, v 6, away from her home into the wilderness of the gentile nations.

How long is the faithful woman Israel in the gentile nations and not at home in Jerusalem? 1,260 days, that is exactly what it says.

-

But,..... We can see from history that the time of the great scattering after 70 AD is in reality about 1900 years and not literally 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years.

So the time of 1260 days is an image of a time far longer than the literal viewpoint.

The timeline anchor of the birth of Jesus and His ascension shows this fleeing from the Roman Empire beast nation to be generally in the 33 AD time period.

The fleeing of faithful Israel happened just 30 years ish after Jesus ascended. 

So looking at history, this proves that the great scattering happened in 70 AD ish and has continued for 1900 years, showing that the 1,260 days are not literal, but are only an image of a much greater time period.

-

The idea that there is a "gap" of 1900 years in the timeline between v 5 and 6 is something that is not indicated by the text.

This viewpoint completely ignores the 70 AD ish, scattering of the people of Israel and the 1900 years of persecution of the Roman beast that followed in the prophetic timeline.  

 

You are not understanding the intent of chapter 12 at all. Here are the words of Jesus as He described this chapter to me:

"Chapter 12 was me introducing John to the Dragon and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

 

He waited while I counted 32 times.

 

"I also chose to show John how the dragon tried to kill me as a young child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

 

In other words, the only relationship of the first five verses to the rest of chapter 12 is that it involves the Dragon. It is a very short picture of the birth of Christ and then His entire life in one verse. 

John starts the chapter with the constellation Virgo and what it looked like when Jesus was born. So at first, the woman was the virgin from the nation of Israel. Then in verse 6, and the rest of the chapter the "woman" becomes a subset of Israel: those in Judea that will flee. The Dragon will go after her, but will fail. 

If John had have had parenthesis marks, I believe the first five verses would be set off as a parenthesis.

I understand that human imagination can add any kind of meaning not intended by the Author.

Edited April 16, 2021 by iamlamad

[abcdef]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are not understanding the intent of chapter 12 at all.

The intent of Rev 12 is to show that Israel is restored to Jerusalem after the symbolic, v. 6 1260 days and v. 14 3 1/2 times. In actual years 70 AD-1967.

The dragon beast is shown to be the Caesar and Roman Empire, Rev 12:4.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here are the words of Jesus as He described this chapter to me:

"Chapter 12 was me introducing John to the Dragon and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

He waited while I counted 32 times.

"I also chose to show John how the dragon tried to kill me as a young child.

So if this is true, then the beast can ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, be the Roman Empire beast. This disproves any future speculation about who the beast nation is and shows that it cannot be future.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

Well John walked and talked with Jesus, saw the miracles, saw His death and resurrection, lived during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the great scattering of 70 AD into the gentile nations, I don't think that John needed a history lesson.

 Rev 12:1-5, are for Israel to anchor the timeline that promises that Jerusalem will be restored after the symbolic 1260 days/3 1/2 times is ended. (1967) The Roman nation dragon beast persecutes the people of Israel during that time. (The same time as the iron in the statue of Dan. 2)

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, the only relationship of the first five verses to the rest of chapter 12 is that it involves the Dragon. It is a very short picture of the birth of Christ and then His entire life in one verse. 

Rev 12, is about both the dragon Roman Empire beast nation and the faithful woman people of Israel, who flee until the time in the wilderness of the gentile nations is over and she returns to Jerusalem.

Not future.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John starts the chapter with the constellation Virgo and what it looked like when Jesus was born.

Rev 12:4, The Roman Empire dragon beast kills 1/3 of Israel during and after invading Israel stars.

Then tries to kill Jesus, King Herod.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So at first, the woman was the virgin from the nation of Israel.

The faithful woman of Rev 12 is the people of Israel who believed Jesus and fled into the gentile nation wilderness before the 70 AD destruction.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then in verse 6, and the rest of the chapter the "woman" becomes a subset of Israel: those in Judea that will flee.

Israel is divided into 1/3's during the 70 ADish scattering,

1/3 flee (faithful Jesus believers, the woman of Rev 12),

1/3 are taken captive (didn't believe, the harlot Israel/Jerusalem of Rev 17),

and 1/3 are killed (didn't believe).

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Dragon will go after her, but will fail. 

The Dragon Roman Empire did go after the woman after 70 AD, but was limited by the extent of Roman power. 

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If John had have had parenthesis marks, I believe the first five verses would be set off as a parenthesis.

But in reality, they are not.

The attempt to interrupt the time line without any indication in the text and insert a gap of 1900 years is distorting the plain meaning and context.

The great 70 AD scattering followed directly, 30 years ish, after the resurrection.

You are trying to break the time line in order to fit a preconceived time line of a 7 year or 3 1/2 year length.  

But this Rev 12 text proves that the great scattering happened in 70 AD and has lasted for 1900 years.

The mix up comes from not understanding that the 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 times are all symbolic images of 70 AD-1967 in the Revelation.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I understand that human imagination can add any kind of meaning not intended by the Author.

Satan can appear as an angel of light.

The truth is in the scriptures.

It appears to me, that your voices may not be giving you the truth.