Tongues?

[enoob57]

13 minutes ago, Paul James said:

the Jewish Pharisees prided themselves as being the experts in the Scriptures and the Law, and yet they missed their Messiah when He appeared.   Also, what sort of a mechanic would a guy be if he said, "The instruction manual is sufficient in all areas of motor vehicle repair", but didn't use the tools provided to actually repair the vehicle?   The tools provided by the Holy Spirit in the form of the 9 gifts are for the strengthening and building up of the body of Christ.   But I guess if one is concerned only for his own personal walk and doesn't have any care about building up his fellow believers in the body of Christ, then the tools (gifts) of the Spirit would be of no use to him.

God’s Word is clear in the sufficiency of Scripture... the transitional aspects of God forming His Word (not yet written) is a poor place to form continuing practices of The Body of Christ and it’s intended functions... many make this error and it is fleshy in it’s sensory fulfillment as God has said ‘the flesh profits nothing’  

[Alive]

11 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God’s Word is clear in the sufficiency of Scripture... the transitional aspects of God forming His Word (not yet written) is a poor place to form continuing practices of The Body of Christ and it’s intended functions... many make this error and it is fleshy in it’s sensory fulfillment as God has said ‘the flesh profits nothing’  

Be careful, Enoob. Please for your sake.

I have been speaking in tongues for well over 40 years in prayer and praise and almost always these days in private.

You just said this is of the flesh. I know that it is an unction from the Lord.

You can express an opinion and it won't harm you, but you go further than that.

I adjure you in Christ's name.

[Paul James]

7 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God’s Word is clear in the sufficiency of Scripture... the transitional aspects of God forming His Word (not yet written) is a poor place to form continuing practices of The Body of Christ and it’s intended functions... many make this error and it is fleshy in it’s sensory fulfillment as God has said ‘the flesh profits nothing’  

The problem is that there is such a widespread lack of knowledge about how the Holy Spirit works with believers, that most church leaders and members wouldn't know how to operate any of the gifts of the Spirit even if they believed in them and wanted them operating in their church meetings.  To most church members the Holy Spirit is an unknown entity - some indeterminate "mist" that "hovers" over the meeting.  Most prayers asking the Holy Spirit to lead the meeting are in the form that He might bless their man-made programming (three hymns and a sermon) in some magical way.  Often, the program grinds its way through the hour and everyone goes out to fill themselves with coffee and biscuits.

The problem is that God is not real for most church members.  He is just some figurehead that people talk about, but don't know on a personal level.  Therefore if God is no more personal to church members than the President, then they won't know the Holy Spirit as someone they can relate to on a personal level either.  So they ignore Him and His gifts altogether.

Therefore, if God is not real to people, then all they have is the Bible;  and many members in liberal churches don't even have that!

[Paul James]

3 minutes ago, Alive said:

Be careful, Enoob. Please for your sake.

I have been speaking in tongues for well over 40 years in prayer and praise and almost always these days in private.

You just said this is of the flesh. I know that it is an unction from the Lord.

You can express an opinion and it won't harm you, but you go further than that.

I adjure you in Christ's name.

My reading of a very sound 1920s Pentecostal preacher and teacher has been very informative.   This preacher was well known for the many authentic and verified healing of sick people all around the world, and of many different types of sicknesses (not just headaches and backaches).   The fruits of his ministry proves that he was truly moved by the Holy Spirit in what he did and taught.

He says that praying in tongues provides the foundation for everything else one can do in the Spirit.  It makes him to be sensitive to the moving of the Spirit, and He does not operate a gift of the Spirit, ie: praying for a sick person, unless he is definitely moved by the Holy Spirit.  He says that often his faith is not enough to achieve the result, and so he waits for the Holy Spirit to give him the gift of faith, and when that happens, he can believe for anything, and so is able to move forward, pray in faith for the sick person, and see the person totally healed.

So he sees tongues as a vital preparation for being able to minister to others in the Spirit.  Without the facility of tongues it is like a motor vehicle without petrol.  It can't go anywhere.  So a person trying to do Holy Spirit ministry without tongues, can only operate in the flesh, because he wouldn't know when the Holy Spirit is moving him, or when it is just self-motivation.

So, if we want sound training in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, we need to go back and study the works of the early 20th Century Pentecostals, because they had keys of knowledge that are largely lost in today's modern Charismatic movement.

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, Alive said:

Be careful, Enoob. Please for your sake.

I have been speaking in tongues for well over 40 years in prayer and praise and almost always these days in private.

You just said this is of the flesh. I know that it is an unction from the Lord.

You can express an opinion and it won't harm you, but you go further than that.

I adjure you in Christ's name.

I stand by what I have said... God clearly teaches us His intent of The Holy Spirit working through the Word of God for the Spiritual fulfillment of the believer! God says no where in Scripture that His Word plus anything else. As I stated tongues is fleshy for it will cease just like the flesh...
1 Cor 13:8
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV
clearly that which you testify subjectively toward as from God, God Himself, says He is not keeping... the when is not specified but the reality that it is not being kept speaks volumes to the truth that which is of God will not cease yet tongues does! One might ask oneself why do I press so for a thing God intends not to keep? I love you brother of mine but I will not back off from this as it is Biblically sound truth!

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Paul James said:

the Jewish Pharisees prided themselves as being the experts in the Scriptures and the Law, and yet they missed their Messiah when He appeared.   Also, what sort of a mechanic would a guy be if he said, "The instruction manual is sufficient in all areas of motor vehicle repair", but didn't use the tools provided to actually repair the vehicle?   The tools provided by the Holy Spirit in the form of the 9 gifts are for the strengthening and building up of the body of Christ.   But I guess if one is concerned only for his own personal walk and doesn't have any care about building up his fellow believers in the body of Christ, then the tools (gifts) of the Spirit would be of no use to him.

God clearly outlays His program here:
John 17:6-20

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
KJV
As clearly God's Word 'IS' the directive whereby all else is brought into subjection to!
Like I said to Alive tongues ceases the things of God do not cease one should evaluate this on it's own merit of truth...

[Paul James]

49 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God clearly outlays His program here:
John 17:6-20

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
KJV
As clearly God's Word 'IS' the directive whereby all else is brought into subjection to!
Like I said to Alive tongues ceases the things of God do not cease one should evaluate this on it's own merit of truth...

Your view on the cessation of tongues is based on faulty exegesis.   To say that tongues is of the flesh contradicts Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.   Paul never describes speaking in tongues being of the flesh.  His teaching involves the use of prophecy over and above tongues in public church meetings because it is important that people understand what is being said.

Also, your quote puts tongues, prophecy and knowledge in the same category that will pass away while charity continues.  So, if you are going to say that tongues will pass away because it is of the flesh and not of the Spirit, then you will have to say the same of prophecy and knowledge.  Seeing that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, you are effectively saying that testifying of what Jesus has done on the cross and rising from the dead, is of the flesh;  as well as preaching, as a form of prophecy, is also of the flesh.   So, you see, to separate tongues from prophecy and knowledge as being of the flesh and therefore temporary, is a twisting of the Scripture, but including prophecy and knowledge makes your view untenable and bordering on the ridiculous.

The real reason why churches prefer not to include the gift of tongues along with other gifts of the Spirit is that they don't know anything about it, and so Cessationism is a handy nail to hang their "hats" on.  1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are mysteries to them, so they ignore those chapters and concentrate on the parts of 1 Corinthians they do understand.   It would be more honest of them to say they don't understand the chapters because they have no experience of them in their churches.   But I guess many religious leaders are too proud to admit they don't know everything there is to know about how the Holy Spirit works in the area of Christian faith and the running of Christian services.

 

[enoob57]

2 minutes ago, Paul James said:

Your view on the cessation of tongues is based on faulty exegesis. 

So your saying the Bible doesn't say tongues will cease?

2 minutes ago, Paul James said:

To say that tongues is of the flesh contradicts Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.   Paul never describes speaking in tongues being of the flesh.  His teaching involves the use of prophecy over and above tongues in public church meetings because it is important that people understand what is being said.

if your going to reference me then do properly... I said as tongues are ceasing so as flesh is ceasing -that's where I placed the fleshiness of tongues! 

2 minutes ago, Paul James said:

Also, your quote puts tongues, prophecy and knowledge in the same category that will pass away while charity continues.  So, if you are going to say that tongues will pass away because it is of the flesh and not of the Spirit, then you will have to say the same of prophecy and knowledge.  Seeing that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, you are effectively saying that testifying of what Jesus has done on the cross and rising from the dead, is of the flesh;  as well as preaching, as a form of prophecy, is also of the flesh.   So, you see, to separate tongues from prophecy and knowledge as being of the flesh and therefore temporary, is a twisting of the Scripture, but including prophecy and knowledge makes your view untenable and bordering on the ridiculous.

The outlay of God's Word is all that is here will be destroyed and all knowledge of such will be removed
 

Isa 65:17

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
KJV
 

2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KJV
 

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV
 

Rev 21:4

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
 

[Paul James]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

God clearly outlays His program here:
John 17:6-20

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
KJV
As clearly God's Word 'IS' the directive whereby all else is brought into subjection to!
Like I said to Alive tongues ceases the things of God do not cease one should evaluate this on it's own merit of truth...

The references you have quoted have nothing to do with the gift of tongues at all.

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

So your saying the Bible doesn't say tongues will cease?

if your going to reference me then do properly... I said as tongues are ceasing so as flesh is ceasing -that's where I placed the fleshiness of tongues! 

The outlay of God's Word is all that is here will be destroyed and all knowledge of such will be removed
 

Isa 65:17

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
KJV
 

2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KJV
 

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV
 

Rev 21:4

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
 

Your premise about tongues being of the flesh and have ceased is not based on exegesis of Scripture, but rather of eisegesis.  Exegesis is reading the Scripture that is actually there and showing how it was understood by contemporary readers of the time it was written.  Eisegesis is reading into Scripture that is actually not there at all.

Therefore, to say that tongues of of the flesh and ceased is based on eisegesis - because nowhere does the Scripture expressly say that tongues is of the flesh, nor is there any reference that tongues was every meant to be just a temporary gift limited to the Apostolic age.   So, your reasoning is based on two plus two equals five.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:2 that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God and that he speaks mysteries in the Spirit.   He also says later on that speaking in tongues is "giving thanks well".  Therefore, to say that speaking in tongues is of the flesh is just plain codswallop, not supported anywhere in Scripture.

Also, the principal examples of people being baptised with the Spirit is that they were observed speaking in tongues and the Spirit gave them utterance.  Therefore, baptism with the Spirit, in Acts, was always accompanied by tongues, even with the Samaritans and Paul, even though in the two latter cases tongues is not mentioned.  But why should Luke repeat himself?  It was obvious to him that when the Holy Spirit fell on a person, they spoke in tongues.   Paul says that he speaks in tongues more than all the Corinthians, so it stands to reason that he received tongues when he was baptised with the Spirit in the house in Damascus when he regained his sight.   And with the Samaritans, it was what Simon the sorcerer saw when the new converts were baptised with the Spirit that induced him to offer Peter and John money for it.  Therefore it was obvious that the Samaritans spoke in tongues and prophesied in the same way that the Ephesus disciples of John did when they were baptised with the Spirit.

So through exegesis of Scripture, and not eisegesis, unbiased students of Scripture can be assured that baptism with the Spirit involves the gift of tongues, prophecy, and the potential of manifesting any of the nine gifts of the Spirit, and none of these gifts were and are never meant cease until the second coming of Christ, when tongues, prophecy and other tools of the Spirit will no longer be needed.

Anyone who teaches Cessationism is actually contradicting Scripture by reading stuff into it that is not there, and actually robbing their disciples of being able to access the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives and ministry.  It will absolutely suck to be a Cessationist at the Judgment when it will be revealed to them how many people they have robbed through their demonic doctrine.

So, until you can provide actual Scripture, instead of obscure twisting of unrelated verses and half verses that you are using eisegesis to support your premise, it might be best to stop writing codswallop and support your assertions with clearly written, sound Scripture that actually says that the gifts were designed to be temporary and just for the Apostolic age.

I know you can't, because there are none!