Tongues?

[Paul James]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:12 AM, enoob57 said:

The transitional nature of the beginning of The Church was of special needs as they only had the OT to refer to and the NT of Grace not Law was certainly new to them 

clearly with the NT being formed there was need for The Holy Spirit to work as He did... but the intent of God is also revealed that when His Word was completed it would be the only standard whereby we His Children would place our trust:
                                                                                                                                   
and just in case you missed that God's Word was the only source from which God intended for s/Spiritual everything Paul in Spirit wrote

I disagree as the clear instruction of tongues is they are considered thus

 

1.  There is no indication anywhere in the book of Acts where the early church was a "transitional" church.  It was the definitive model of what the church should be until the second coming of Christ.

2. The Apostles, including Paul had no idea that what was being written to the churches was meant to be additions to what was already accepted as Holy Scripture.  The canon of the New Testament was instituted by a council of bishops in the second and third centuries.  When Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians he had no expectation that his letters would become holy Scripture, so his statement, "what that which is perfect is come" has nothing to do with the formation of the New Testament which didn't even enter his head.   So the notion that the supernatural spiritual gifts were merely transitional and ceased after the Apostolic Age, is a fabrication put forward by those who did not want to admit that the church had descended into apostacy, which was the real reason why the Holy Spirit departed along with His gifts.

3.  To say that God intended that the spiritual gifts were just transitional, is a total fabrication, and slanders God in making out that He intended something which He did no such thing.

4.  The Holy Spirit expressly said not to forbid the speaking of tongues, either in church for interpretation, or in private to God alone.   If you disagree with the express instructions from the Holy Spirit, then to say that you are depending on God's Word as your standard, is contradicting yourself.  You are disobeying the instruction from the Holy Spirit to "pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but that that you may prophesy."  Therefore if you believe and teach that the spiritual gifts are no longer current for the church, then you won't desire them, therefore walking in disobedience to the very Word you say you are holding up as the standard for yourself.

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Paul James said:

1.  There is no indication anywhere in the book of Acts where the early church was a "transitional" church.  It was the definitive model of what the church should be until the second coming of Christ.

2. The Apostles, including Paul had no idea that what was being written to the churches was meant to be additions to what was already accepted as Holy Scripture.  The canon of the New Testament was instituted by a council of bishops in the second and third centuries.  When Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians he had no expectation that his letters would become holy Scripture, so his statement, "what that which is perfect is come" has nothing to do with the formation of the New Testament which didn't even enter his head.   So the notion that the supernatural spiritual gifts were merely transitional and ceased after the Apostolic Age, is a fabrication put forward by those who did not want to admit that the church had descended into apostacy, which was the real reason why the Holy Spirit departed along with His gifts.

3.  To say that God intended that the spiritual gifts were just transitional, is a total fabrication, and slanders God in making out that He intended something which He did no such thing.

4.  The Holy Spirit expressly said not to forbid the speaking of tongues, either in church for interpretation, or in private to God alone.   If you disagree with the express instructions from the Holy Spirit, then to say that you are depending on God's Word as your standard, is contradicting yourself.  You are disobeying the instruction from the Holy Spirit to "pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but that that you may prophesy."  Therefore if you believe and teach that the spiritual gifts are no longer current for the church, then you won't desire them, therefore walking in disobedience to the very Word you say you are holding up as the standard for yourself.

If you cannot see that the letters were being written and the canon of NT would not be finished before 90 AD and the transition from OT to NT was in process... transition is self evident...

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

If you cannot see that the letters were being written and the canon of NT would not be finished before 90 AD and the transition from OT to NT was in process... transition is self evident...

If you don't accept the ways that the Holy Spirit makes His presence known to the church in these days, all you have is just written words in a book.  You can quote them until the cows come home but the Holy Spirit won't speak through those quotes if you reject His way of edifying and strengthening the body of Christ through the nine gifts He has provided for that purpose.

You need to reject the false teaching of your mentors who have rejected the Holy Spirit, and also get your eyes off the excesses of some areas of the Charismatic movement which has corrupted the work of the Holy Spirit as an occasion for the flesh, and even occult practice.   In the judgment when your eyes will be opened to see that you have robbed yourself and others of being able to use the tools the Holy Spirit has provided to make your ministry alive and powerful, you will be without excuse.  You won't be able to blame your mentors' false teaching, nor will you be able to blame the corruption in the Charismatic movement.

It may very well be that you may be saved as of by fire, with everything else, being wood, hay and stubble, burned up, and you going into glory with nothing to show for your life.

So, you need to get right with God now, while you have the opportunity to truly walk in the Holy Spirit, allowing the Holy Spirit to work through you to accomplish God's will and the calling that Christ has placed on your life.

A prominent Bible teacher said that if we need to know the will of God, read the Bible.  If we need to do the will of God, do the Bible.  We need to do the whole Bible, including 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.

[enoob57]

I've heard all the rhetoric ... and it is certain we cannot agree on pretty much of everything... 
John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
KJV
I would say the Word is what we answer to in the last day...

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

I've heard all the rhetoric ... and it is certain we cannot agree on pretty much of everything... 
John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
KJV
I would say the Word is what we answer to in the last day...

Quite right!   "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, rather that you may prophesy" is one of those words that the Holy Spirit has spoken to us.  Also, "Despise not prophecies, and forbid not speaking in tongues."   The Holy Spirit, through 1 Corinthians is conveying Jesus' words.  He does not speak of Himself, but speaks only what Christ tells Him.  In turn, Christ speaks only what the Father has told Him to speak.  Therefore 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 come right from the heart of the Father, whose will it was for Christ to send the Holy Spirit and His gifts to the church for its use to bring the gospel to sinners and to strengthen the body of Christ.

So, yes, we are all going to be judged according to what the Father has conveyed to Christ, who conveyed the Word to the church by the Holy Spirit in the letters of Paul.

[Justin Adams]

51 minutes ago, Paul James said:

So, yes, we are all going to be judged according to what the Father has conveyed to Christ, who conveyed the Word to the church by the Holy Spirit in the letters of Paul.

When cessationist throw 'canon' in your face you must remember that it was not formed until much later. There are several, and each is more restrictive as time goes by until you have the Western canon decided by Calvin and Luther. I do not favor either of these people really and find them way off track quite often.

Western, Eastern, First century, RCC, Reformation; all so-called canons!

So if you are of the Calvin/Luther/Augustine/Reformed canon, you are exactly where they want you! Namely, powerless, afraid of the supernatural and cowering behind a pile of hymn books safe in the vestry of a place that poses no threat to the devil and the supernatural bad guys that ran the show until The Cross and Resurrection.

Also, to say that the scriptures are the definitive 'last word' tends to shove prophecy and supernatural gifts under the pews that are reserved for the 'few', the priestly class of nouveau ecumenically astute. The ones that would say: 'come unto me all ye that are heavily laden and I will pile more garbage on your bent shoulders'.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Waggles]

Matt 23:13  But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Luke 11:52  Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

When cessationist throw 'canon' in your face you must remember that it was not formed until much later. There are several, and each is more restrictive as time goes by until you have the Western canon decided by Calvin and Luther. I do not favor either of these people really and find them way off track quite often.

Western, Eastern, First century, RCC, Reformation; all so-called canons!

So if you are of the Calvin/Luther/Augustine/Reformed canon, you are exactly where they want you! Namely, powerless, afraid of the supernatural and cowering behind a pile of hymn books safe in the vestry of a place that poses no threat to the devil and the supernatural bad guys that ran the show until The Cross and Resurrection.

Also, to say that the scriptures are the definitive 'last word' tends to shove prophecy and supernatural gifts under the pews that are reserved for the 'few', the priestly class of nouveau ecumenically astute. The ones that would say: 'come unto me all ye that are heavily laden and I will pile more garbage on your bent shoulders'.

Of course Calvin and Luther were men of their times, and they weren't Cessatonists by doctrine.  They recognised that the gifts did cease and suspected that it was the apostacy of the church that made it happen.  Calvin states in his commentary on 1 Corinthians that tongues and prophecy declined probably because of misuse by individuals doing them in the flesh because of the lowering of the standards of holiness in the churches.

Actually, I am reading through Calvin's commentary on the gospel of John and there are a lot of things he says that really speak to me, increasing my faith in Christ.   I have also read Luther's commentary on Galatians, and find it second to none in showing where we stand with Christ without the condemnation of the Law.

We all have the treasure in earthen vessels, and no man of God is perfect, and so the miracle of God's grace and the voice of the Holy Spirit is that He can speak through imperfect men and greatly increase our faith as they do their best to point us to Christ.

it is not Calvin or Luther themselves who have the problem, it was those who came after them who put their own interpretation on what these men taught and corrupted the doctrine through self ambition and grandisement.

I believe that both Calvin and Luther were continuists at heart, and would have loved to see the Holy Spirit's supernatural gifts manifested under their ministries, and I firmly believe that they would have sought Him earnestly that the power of the Holy Spirit would work through their work for the Lord.   I believe that it wasn't the time for it to happen, and the Holy Spirit's time started with John Wesley's 250 verified healing during his ministry, Guy Bevington's Methodist Evangelistic healing ministry in the early 20th Century, and the Pentecostal revival that introduced tongues through Parnam's ministry at Topeka and carried on through Seymour's ministry at Azuza Street.

If we study each revival from the Reformation onwards, we see that in each one, a crucial doctrine was restored to the church that was hidden by the fraudulent apostate church.  First there was justification by faith,   In the Puritan revival, true conversion to Christ and piety were the principal doctrines.  The Methodist revival introduced divine healing, the Scottish Covenanters introduced the gift of prophecy, the Pentecostal revival introduced tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit, the Charismatic revival introduced continuance into the traditional churches and the Awakenings through Charles Finney and George Whitefield in America introduced the principle of making a personal decision for Christ leading to salvation.

So we see in the centuries since the Reformation, important doctrines to restore the church back to what it was in the First Century were progressively being restored to the church.  As we can see, there is a way to go and we look forward to the Holy Spirit working more and more to perfect the body of Christ and make it ready for the second coming of Christ.

[Justin Adams]

6 minutes ago, Paul James said:

the Charismatic revival introduced continuance into the traditional churches

You might find this of interest.

CharismaticRenewalinBritain.pdf

[Justin Adams]

8 minutes ago, Paul James said:

it is not Calvin or Luther themselves who have the problem

I agree in part. But Westley would never have jailed someone for not calling him 'master'. The TULIP horrors were indeed a terrible travesty and no worse really than the RCC and their pogroms to the 'heathen savages'.

History is sometimes unfortunately sprinkled with horrific actions. Thus, I care not for the Calvinist doctrines or the Reformed canon. They created 'reforms' that really just replaced one yoke with another that is sometimes worse. You can see the plaques and the spot in Oxford where Cranmer and others were burned.

The sickness is in the mind of the bearer often and not in the text.

The reformation was too little too late. It took many useful scriptures away and told us how to think. The translators followed the party line, so today we have have a glossy publication with very little in the way of spiritual teeth.

When Paul says: "all scripture is of benefit etc.." he was talking about what he read and the Lord had studied - NOT the reformed canon.

Thus the 'modern' church is not only afraid of the supernatural, their scriptures have been strip-mined of most of the supernatural content therein.

For instance: read psalm 82 and see how many translators replace the Hebrew and LXX mentions of the "Sons of God" with just about anything. Then see if Psalm 86 makes it any more clear??  Who is in the Skies, a bunch of judges or men??

You have to have a Divine Council Worldview to see all the dots connected in context.