ORDER OF EVENTS

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think anyone can find the exact order of things. Some of it is pretty obvious, some is murky. I have seen complex charts that try to order everything in the Revelation. They get very big and messy. I don't think making a chart clears up what we can't see or understand. 

Diaste, the exact order of the major end times events can be determined - but only if a person understands that becoming the Antichrist is becoming the bogus King of Israel coming in his own name.     And differently, the same person being the little horn and the beast is being the King of the Roman empire in the end times.

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

This is a demonstrable fly in the eschatology ointment. So for any new Christians reading this kind of thing, this is NOT a salvation issue.

The peddlers of end-times ideas cannot all be correct. We are instructed to major on the Gospel, and if time permits, study and show ourselves approved.

For any end times scenario, one has to make 'assumptions' and design a theory. Some use and chop up scriptures out of context to make their theory work. Many millions have been made selling books and videos of various end times ideas. None of them are absolutely certain. But we may watch and wait soberly and see what the Lord will do.

Wasting time on endless arguments about the end times is dysfunctional, and has split many an assembly. After about AD 100, along with the 'church fathers' we have masses of theology and some of it is quite bad and far off the mark. The Christian should study and know what they believe and why. God will take care of the end times without our dogmas. It behooves us to support our fellow believers and endeavor not to mislead them. 

Never tie your ideas of eschatology to your or anyone else's salvation.

Justin, I think you are in the wrong forum.    New Christians should be learning everything they can about eschatology.

Edited August 22, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not to disparage your convictions but a lot of people say that and they have widely varying takes on what God led them to.

 

You ask me and I gave you my answer, as it pertains to me.        I was not speaking on behalf of others.

You could apply your same rationale that billions have different religious views than Christians - so what?   It is a foregone conclusion.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by douggg

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Some of the clearest language in all of scripture in terms of order is the following from Matt 24:

I agree.  

Also, I completely understand where you are coming from BUT please consider 

Days of sorrow -  Before
Tribulation  -  Beasts on earth, Satan in war in heaven  1st half OTW
Great Tribulation  -  Satan and bad figs on earth  2nd half  OTW
Wrath  -  Day of Vengeance Christs return
 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming
 

We go from
the beasts that come up from the earth (or should I just say come out from the shadows they have been hiding in while they have been positioning themselves to rule the earth) the political kingdom represented by the religious rock star, a definitely time of testing (Trib)

TO 
Satan and his are kicked down to give us the Final Exam (Great Trib). 

Where 
We pass and go onto our job with Christ

or
we fail and find ourselves sent to reform school to start all over again, for what will feel like forever, hopefully to pass the test next time Satan is loosed.    

 

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places

Here it departs, BUT no mention of passing away, or noise or elements melting or burning up.  I know it seems nit picky, but it seems a place where that exact thing is called for.  

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up?  

Is it just similar?  Satan does copy many things he is the prince in this valley of the shadow of death and he knows what Christians are taught and and maybe it's just the instead of or Anti Lords Day because if it is in fact the SAME,
no need for trumps or anything else, such as time for that matter, just next day right then and there.  

When the sun goes down it is NIGHT.

But when the sun becomes BLACK, it would seem to be more a Satans kind of night. NO LIGHT GETTING IN except the dim light from the blood moon.  (Yes, spiritually, not physically speaking)  (best have a lamp and extra oil)

We  are given this description here of 

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name One.

Just looking to set straight that which may be crooked before us and PLEASE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THIS, I will have the same amount of satisfaction and joy whether it is me or you that is given/receives new knowledge or anyone else because I believe/know/have faith that we are ONE in Christ and being sealed in GODS TRUTH is all that matters.

Our eyes are being opened like never before but we won't receive anything new unless we do it GODS WAY, a major work in progress for me as I am finally coming to the understanding that TILL ALL SEALED means I am no closer than the one furthest from the Truth and that is the goal .

We have got to let Divine revelation stomp out wisdom of the world.  And IF YOU ever SEE me doing that, I WOULD APPRECIATE A SINCERE REBUKE,  so that I could go to God in earnest with much prayer and supplication and stay on that narrow path.  Last thing I ever want to do is teach something that has been shown to be false.  I digress.


Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


 
 and every mountain and island were moved out of their places
1537 a preposition,  eks before a vowel – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 

"out of" is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by."

has A TWO LAYER MEANING - OUT FROM AND TO  which makes it out-come oriented

OUT OF THE DEPTHS OF THE SOURCE and EXTENDING TO ITS IMPACT 
 

[Sister]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree.  

Also, I completely understand where you are coming from BUT please consider 

Days of sorrow -  Before
Tribulation  -  Beasts on earth, Satan in war in heaven  1st half OTW
Great Tribulation  -  Satan and bad figs on earth  2nd half  OTW
Wrath  -  Day of Vengeance Christs return

 

Hi DeighAnn

Satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:7   And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8   And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Can you see the timing?  If was after the man child was caught up to God and to his throne (after the resurrection of Christ) that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven.

 And just before Jesus was crucified, he said this;

John 12:31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30   Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

So the great tribulation is not the cause of Satan being cast out of heaven suddenly, because it happened a long time ago.  As a result of that, Satan's wrath is more towards Christ and his saints, for being the reason he was cast out of heaven forever.  He thought that by killing Christ, men would not receive the light, but his plans backfired, and now that he is exposed, and shamed, the kingdom of God receives more power through Christ and his saints.

So we cannot equate the great tribulation to Satan being cast out of heaven, at that same timing.  Rev 12 clarifies what Jesus was speaking about in John.  Just thought I'd mention this for now so you can take a look at it, and then go from there, because this part has to be corrected in order to have true doctrine that matches with scripture.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi DeighAnn

Satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:7   And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8   And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Can you see the timing?  If was after the man child was caught up to God and to his throne (after the resurrection of Christ) that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven.

 And just before Jesus was crucified, he said this;

John 12:31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30   Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

So the great tribulation is not the cause of Satan being cast out of heaven suddenly, because it happened a long time ago.  As a result of that, Satan's wrath is more towards Christ and his saints, for being the reason he was cast out of heaven forever.  He thought that by killing Christ, men would not receive the light, but his plans backfired, and now that he is exposed, and shamed, the kingdom of God receives more power through Christ and his saints.

So we cannot equate the great tribulation to Satan being cast out of heaven, at that same timing.  Rev 12 clarifies what Jesus was speaking about in John.  Just thought I'd mention this for now so you can take a look at it, and then go from there, because this part has to be corrected in order to have true doctrine that matches with scripture.

 

Hi Sister

If Satan and his angels were kicked out we would have GIANTS everywhere all over the world.  Remember when God flooded the world back in the days of Noah?  We would also have SUPER NATURAL events happening all the time if Satan were here.  There is NO WAY that Satan would have been walking around the earth for the last 2000 years and not have been in total control of it.  He would have long ago started sitting as God and being worshipped.

We can't read the Bible like it is a story that just progresses in order.  By the way you are "seeing" it, 

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

there would have been A WHOLE NEW EARTH CREATED in the middle of the book of Revelation.  Do you see just a few of the problems that time line creates? 
 

[wingnut-]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you see just a few of the problems that time line creates? 

 

There is no problem at all, I am not sure where you get some of your conclusions from regarding giants and such, it isn't in scripture.  Sister is 100% correct, this has already taken place.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

So the great tribulation is not the cause of Satan being cast out of heaven suddenly, because it happened a long time ago. 

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

Not yet.

[Justin Adams]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

https://drmsh.com/september-11-happy-birthday-to-jesus/

See the star charts in Heiser's video.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

You ask me and I gave you my answer, as it pertains to me.        I was not speaking on behalf of others.

You could apply your same rationale that billions have different religious views than Christians - so what?   It is a foregone conclusion.

 

And then is God leading the billions to different conclusions as it relates to His word?