Revelation 6:2 White horse

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Think of the white horse as the European nations, while still under the control of their respective royal dynasties, going out into the world and colonizing the other nations.

Think of the red horse as the communist ideology that countered the colonial establishment and which is breaking the power of the white horse. No winner is indicated.

First off, you must understand the context of the first seal. 

Notice this verse as the CONTEXT of the first seal: Rev. 5

^5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

When did this happen? WHEN did Jesus ascend and then send the Holy Spirit down? Yesterday? No, it was about 32 AD.  Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down. But there is more: a search was made for one worthy but that search ended in failure. Where was Jesus at that time? Why was He not found worthy in that 1st search? God is telling us something here, but people read right over it and miss the intent of the passage.

In chapter 4, in a vision seen around 95 AD, a throne room with God the Father on the throne, but Jesus NOT SEEN at His right hand - but a dozen verses would place him there. Why? Why was  Jesus not seen where over a dozen verses tell us He should have been? Then in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is there when we would expect him to be sent down (as shown in 5:6. WHY? WHY was Jesus not seen, the Holy Spirit still there, and Jesus NOT found?

Keep in mind, this is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and to write. The truth is, God wanted to introduce John to the book, but wanted to start His story while the book was still in the hand of the Father which was before Christ ascended: so in the vision He showed John the throne room JUST BEFORE JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD - then up to His death - then after His death when He rose from the dead and  was then found worthy - then as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down  - as we read in chapter 5. This is the CONTEXT of the first seal. To make this white horse and rider the Antichrist or Satan is error about 2000 years off from truth.

2. Did you notice that in 6:8 that "power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth."  Is Satan limited to one fourth part of the earth? You know he is not: he is god over this entire planet. 

3. Did you notice WHO this power was given over the 4th of the planet? John wrote "THEM." But WHO is "them? John tells us:
Power was given unto them to kill with the SWORD: the 2nd seal and the red horse and rider was given a great SWORD.
Power was given unto them to kill with HUNGER.: The 3rd seal and black horse and rider was to bring FAMINE which causes HUNGER.
Power was given unto them to kill with DEATH:  The 4th seal and pale horse and rider was title DEATH.

Do you see it? John tied these three together as evil, but left out the white horse and rider.  And these three are limited to 1/4 of the earth in their theater of operation. 

4. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and for 16 of these 17, to represent righteousness. I can assure you, God would NEVER just the color white 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. It just would not happen. Therefore we can be assured the white color of the horse is to represent righteousness. Without much doubt, the horse and the bow are to represent warfare of some kind.  So to sum it up, we have a righteous conflict taking place in 32 AD, not with physical arrows, but arrows of the Word  of God.  

5. According to verse 6:8, three horses ride together but the white horse is not with them. It is written that every good gift and ever perfect gift is from our Father God, but the devil comes to kill, steal and destroy. With this in mind, who is behind wars, famines, and pestilences? Of course it would be the devil.  But the white horse is NOT IN Their mix. He rides separately.

6. This rider was given a victor's crown. this crown was given AFTER the fact to see who won. This crown speaks of ULTIMATE victory, not a victory over a few skirmishs and then loses big time.   This crown does not fit the Antichrist who will end up in the lake of fire. 

7. It is written that the Antichrist is given authority over the entire planet, not just 1/4 of the planet. None of the four horsemen fit the Antichrist.

When you put it all together, the ONLY entity that was righteous on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. We KNOW Jesus sent them out to take the gospel to the nations. This first seal is a perfect picture of that.

Satan is the god of this world. Was he going to just step aside and allow the gospel free access to all nations? No, many lives were lost as the Gospel was taken to new nations. It was CONFLICT: it was CONQUERING - it was overcoming. The gates of hell COULD NOT WIN. But martyrs were the result. (the 5th seal.)

So seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel - But God limited them to only 1/4 of the earth. Plain and simple. 

Coffman Commentariies: 

1. "The white horse ..." The color here is significant, for its contrasts with the colors of the other horses; and nowhere in Revelation is white used otherwise than as a symbol of purity, holiness, glory, etc. "In the book of Revelation, white is never used of anything evil."^[10] The white throne upon which God sits is an example.

2. The choice of a "horse" in this symbolism means "war." It is a righteous war, for the horse was white, indicating truth and righteousness. "This war began when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, and his disciples began to go everywhere at his command."^[11]

3. The rider wore a crown which was "given to him," not a crown extorted through the atrocities of war, but a gift of God. A "crown" in the Scriptural sense upon the head of some profane conqueror is impossible to believe. Only Christ fits the picture.

4. The rider on this white horse went forth "conquering and to conquer," expressions used extensively elsewhere in the New Testament of Christ. "We feel sure that had you never heard another interpretation you would at once have said, `This is the Conquering Christ

He perhaps missed it in that it is the conquering CHURCH, not Christ per se.   he continues:

Some little time has been devoted to this opening of the first seal, because the way it is interpreted will color all that follows. For example, if this crowned rider on the white horse with the bow in his hand is understood to mean Jesus Christ and his worldwide program of preaching the gospel, it is clear enough that it cannot possibly refer to some relatively short period of history, but to the entire dispensation reaching from the First Advent to the Second Advent. Thus we confidently interpret it. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14).

Expository Notes:  By the white horse is generally understood the gospel, so called in regard of the divinity and spotless purity of its doctrine: the rider upon this horse is Christ, who rode swiftly in the ministry of the apostles, and other faithful teachers in the first ages of Christianity; and he rode with a bow in his hand, and a crown on his head: with a bow, that is, with threatenings and terrors denounced against his enemies before they were inflicted upon them, as the bow is first held in the hand, then the arrow prepared upon the string, and at last shot forth: and with a crown, denoting that royal state of kingly dignity and honour to which Christ, the Lamb that was slain, was now exalted; and thus he rode on conquering and to conquer, until he had consummated his victories, in a glorious triumph over his enemies, namely, in the conversion of some, and destruction of others; thus the opening of the first seal gave the church a very encouraging and comfortable prospect of the victories, successes and triumphs, of Christ, notwithstanding the rage, subtlety, and power, of all his enemies: Christ rode on with a bow in his hand, and with a crown on his head, conquering and to conquer, until his arrows were sharp in the hearts of his crucifiers; and will thus ride on till the people fall under him, and all his enemies become his footstool.

Matthew Poole:

2. Hence it followeth, that many of the things prophesied are fulfilled; ...

3. I take it for granted also, that things happened in the same order as is here described; so as the things under the second seal came not to pass till those prophesied of under the first seal were, in a great measure, accomplished, &c.

Some, by this white horse, understand the gospel; others, the Roman empire.

Justin Edwards Commentary: l. There are those who suppose that the seven seals and the seven trumpets run, either wholly or in part, parallel with each other in time, each carrying the history of the church and the world down to the era of millennial glory. Such of course apply the sixth seal to the mighty revolutions, commotions, and overturnings that immediately precede the millennial reign of Christ. But it seems impossible to reconcile this view with the plain words of the apostle in chap Revelation

 

Adam Clarke Commentary

A white horse - Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

John Gill commentary 

And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths, the peace it proclaims, the joy brings, and the triumph that attends it, on account of victories obtained by it,

and he that sat on him had a bow; with arrows; the bow is the word of the Gospel, and the arrows the doctrines of it;

and he went forth, conquering and to conquer; in the ministration of the Gospel  which went forth, as did all the first ministers of it, from Jerusalem, to the several parts of the world; from the east, on which side of the throne was the first living creature, who called upon John to come and see this sight, as the standard of the tribe of Judah, which had a lion upon it, was on the east side of the camp of Israel; and out of Zion went forth the word of the Lord, which was very victorious, both among Jews and Gentiles, to the conversion of thousands of them, and to the planting of a multitude of churches among them, and to the setting up and advancing the kingdom of Christ; but inasmuch as yet all things are not made subject to him, he is represented as going forth in the Gospel, still conquering, and to conquer, what remain to be conquered:

John Trapp Commentary: And behold a white horse] The apostles and apostolic preachers of the primitive times, white for their purity of doctrine, discipline, and conversation; horses for their nimble and swift spreading the gospel, which ran αθροως οια τις ηλιου βολη, through the world like a sunbeam

had a bow] The doctrine of the gospel, whereby the people fall under him, Psalms 45:4.

 

Heinrich Meyer's Commentary:

 ‘The white horse is the word of preaching sent with the Holy Spirit into the world. For the Lord says, This gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come,’—

Whedon's Commentary:  The white horse was, in antiquity, a symbol of victory. The conqueror, in triumphal processions, rode on a white horse. And hence the Messiah, in Revelation 19:11, rides a “white horse.” From this fact many commentators identify the two, and interpret this symbol as the going forth of a conquering gospel. 

Dr. Thomas Constable.  There have been many suggestions concerning who or what this rider represents. These include a Roman emperor, the Parthian invasion of the Roman Empire, Messiah, and the Antichrist. Others have taken him to represent the Word of God, a personification of judgment, the victorious course of the gospel,

George Haydock Catholic Commentary:

A white horse, such as conquerors used to ride upon at a solemn triumph. This is commonly understood of our Saviour, Christ, who, by himself and his apostles, preachers, martyrs, and other saints, triumphed over all the adversaries of his Church. He had a bow in his hand, the doctrine of his gospel, piercing like an arrow the hearts of the hearers; and the crown given him, was a token of the victory of him who went forth conquering, that he might conquer. (Witham) --- He that sitteth on the white horse is Christ, going forth to subdue the world by his gospel.  (I don't think the rider is Jesus.

 

Hanserd Knollys' Commentary on Revelation

By this white horse we may understand the ministry of the gospel of peace and grace, especially the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit in the word preached.

Unknown Commentary:

1. In verse2Christ opens THE FIRST SEAL

WHICH IS EVANGELISM--"And I saw A WHITE HORSE, and He that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto Him: and He went forth conquering and to conquer."

This first seal reveals Christ going throughout the world preaching the gospel in a holy war against sin. Christian evangelism is marked by countless victories. In John"s day the Roman emperor claimed absolute power, but here in the first seal John saw that the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ will result in victories in his and all generations as the reign of Jesus Christ extends over surrendered Christians. Victory does not belong to temporal earthly powers--not even to Roman Emperors--but the bow and crown of victory is given to the evangel of the risen Christ.

Benson Commentary

 the kingdoms of this world should become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ. The white colour of the horse, the bow which he had that sat on it, shooting arrows afar off, the crown given unto him, and his going forth conquering and to conquer — All these circumstances betoken victory, triumph, prosperity, enlargement of empire, and dominion over many people. And all these figurative representations of authority, government, success, and conquest, may be properly applied to the gospel and the kingdom of Christ, which was now beginning to spread far and wide, 

 

[The Light]

On 9/1/2020 at 5:44 AM, Moby said:

Yes brother it amazes me as well how some men will hijack a thread because they need to promote their newly discovered doctrine based on a couple of verses! There are two men on this forum that keep pushing two raptures even though there is not a thread of truth to it. Father told us exactly how His message is discovered which includes understanding the white horse seal:

https://sumofthyword.com/

 

Well let's see. We got a whole lot of people that think there will be a pretribulation rapture. Those ideas and reasoning come from somewhere. Then we have a whole lot of people that think that there is a prewrath rapture.

Gee. Maybe there is both. The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.

The coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. LIKEWISE ALSO, the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. FACT.

The Lord will come at the trump of God. He will send His angels at the last trump. FACT.

 

[Dennis1209]

On 8/26/2020 at 3:47 AM, Charlie744 said:

I expect to complete the first phase of Daniel (all 12 chapters) within the next 2 months. 

I was instructed to study Daniel before I attempt Revelation. Because I had  so much difficulty with 11, I found/started to seek assistance within this forum.

I would not want or feel the need to try and tackle Revelation the same way-I believe it will be so much more challenging, and because there is so much talent within this forum, I would to learn with as many folks that are interested... it is ALWAYS so much more enjoyable when you can be part of a team.

Consequently, in Revelation 6:2, it reads-

“And I heard and I saw, and behold a white horse and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went out victorious, both conquering and to conquer”.

I guess if I was going to tackle this verse, I would list out the specific characteristics, and try to ensure my interpretation includes all of them:

1) white horse- why a horse, why white,

2) who is “he” sitting on the horse,

3) this “he” had a bow- where is the arrow: was “he” not given one or did “he” already shoot it,

4) a crown was given to him - crown given after he had been sitting, what does the crown signify, is this his permission to go out.. who gave him the crown, 

5) he went out victorious- against who, is “he” a good or bad “he”, 

6) why two separate actions... both conquering and to conquer... seems that was his intended purpose or mission (was this “mission” a designed role or did “he” decide on his own to conquer,

7) are there any Scriptures that can identify these characteristics or identity

As mentioned in previous posts, I know NOTHING of Revelation and would respectfully ask for your comments and opinions.

Thank you very much, Charlie 

Hello Charlie,

What a coincidence running across this thread at this time? I recently got a new software program that I'm transferring all my scattered study notes to; one that I will not lose my research notes when my computer crashes or get a new one. It so happens that just yesterday, I started transferring my notes starting with Revelation, as it probably contains the most notes. Got through chapter 6: so far.

Yes, you got some excellent advice to start and understand the book of Daniel first. Just noticed this is an old post from August, so once again I'm late for the party... I'll copy and paste my notes I just transferred today pertaining to Rev. 6:2. Please keep in mind, when I make notes; it's for me and to refresh my memory of the previous studies. We all have our hermeneutical views, and I don't claim my view is the correct one; it's just how I interpret it logically reading and studying. My notes are as follows:

This is the introduction to the Antichrist stage left. The symbolic color ‘white’ usually represents peace or surrender; in this instance it represents peace. Notice the Antichrist only has a bow [to launch] and no quiver or arrows. A crown was given him [power and royalty]; it appears all his victories so far have been bloodless and authority was given to him, presenting himself as a man of peace [probably won the Nobel Peace Prize]? The picture I get is; he is politically and militarily brilliant; strategical, eloquent of speech, skilful diplomacy and a great orator; deceiving such as the world has never seen; he will dazzle the world and be irresistible. Hitler will be small potatoes compared to him. It will elevate him to the leader of the soon coming One World Government [Satan’s man]. Like Antiochus Epiphanes his prototype, he will come in peaceably and with flatteries [insincere praise]. At this point, the world has been prepared and ready to receive him, in his name. This person is described by 33 different names in the Bible [son of perdition, man of sin, etc.]. Antichrist is only mentioned in the Bible in four places. Anti means against or in place of; the latter being my preference. He will come out of obscurity out of nowhere. He can’t be identified ahead of time; until he confirms a seven year covenant with Israel and the many. He will be the satanic man that the world has been screaming for to solve the globes problems. The Bible is clear we can't identify whom the Antichrist is ahead of his unveiling. But, the Bible doesn't say nor imply that we can't figure out who the False Prophet is?

Daniel 11:21 (KJV) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. The Antichrist appears to come from the tribe of Dan [Gen 49:17, Jer 8:16]. He does not become the Beast until the abomination which makes desolation at exactly mid-tribulation; when Satan is cast out of Heaven for good. This seven year covenant with Israel will probably include the permission to build the 3rd Temple.

[Moby]

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Well let's see. We got a whole lot of people that think there will be a pretribulation rapture. Those ideas and reasoning come from somewhere. Then we have a whole lot of people that think that there is a prewrath rapture.

Gee. Maybe there is both. The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.

The coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. LIKEWISE ALSO, the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. FACT.

The Lord will come at the trump of God. He will send His angels at the last trump. FACT.

 

The Holy Spirit thru Paul made it very clear where all the false doctrines would come from shortly after Paul departed from the churches he was led to establish:

Acts 20:27-30  For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.  (28)  Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.  (29)  I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;  (30)  and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Whether some fig trees have two harvests is totally inconsequential as I only study the Word for truth. Jesus clearly taught that the harvest was made in the field which is the world:

Matthew 9:37-38  Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest indeed is plenteous, but the laborers are few.  (38)  Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth laborers into his harvest.

This harvesting of souls has been going on for two thousand years from both the Jews and Gentiles:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

When the believer dies his or her soul enters goes into heaven and their bodies stays here:

2 Corinthians 5:6-9  Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord  (7)  (for we walk by faith, not by sight);  (8)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.  (9)  Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

The final harvest of all the bodies of the saints we not be until the resurrection/rapture at the "end of the world" as the year of wrath commences:

Matthew 13:37-43  And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;  (38)  and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;  (39)  and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.  (40)  As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.  (41)  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,  (42)  and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.  (43)  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Moby said:

The Holy Spirit thru Paul made it very clear where all the false doctrines would come from shortly after Paul departed from the churches he was led to establish:

Acts 20:27-30  For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.  (28)  Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.  (29)  I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;  (30)  and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

So anyone that does not agree with your interpretation is a ravenous wolf? That of course means that anyone that believes in a pretribulation rapture you consider to be a ravenous wolf.

I like to stick to facts. Here are the facts.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you want to hang around and go through all the things that will come to pass during the 70th week of Daniel, that's good for you. But for you to tell others that they have to go through all the things that will come to pass completely disregards what the word says.

1 hour ago, Moby said:

Whether some fig trees have two harvests is totally inconsequential as I only study the Word for truth. Jesus clearly taught that the harvest was made in the field which is the world:

Jesus also clearly taught:

Matthew 24

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

We also learn in the Old Testament, that the Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, but they served Gods.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

We also learn that the Jews will realize that they are not saved when the early summer harvest occurs.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

And of course we know that the Jews will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It seems you do not grasp the truth of the scriptures. I know the root our your dilemma.

1 hour ago, Moby said:

Matthew 9:37-38  Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest indeed is plenteous, but the laborers are few.  (38)  Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth laborers into his harvest.

This harvesting of souls has been going on for two thousand years from both the Jews and Gentiles:

Have the dead in Christ risen yet?

1 hour ago, Moby said:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

When the believer dies his or her soul enters goes into heaven and their bodies stays here:

2 Corinthians 5:6-9  Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord  (7)  (for we walk by faith, not by sight);  (8)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.  (9)  Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

The final harvest of all the bodies of the saints we not be until the resurrection/rapture at the "end of the world" as the year of wrath commences:

Matthew 13:37-43  And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;  (38)  and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;  (39)  and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.  (40)  As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.  (41)  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,  (42)  and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.  (43)  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

So the tares are gathered 1st. That occurs at the very end AFTER the wrath of God. But here we see that the righteous are gathered first and the rest are cast into the wrath of God.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So we see in Rev 14 before the wrath of God that it is the righteous that are gathered 1st. I suspect that, as usual, brother, you will have no answers and will want to CHERRY PICK the OLIVE TREE. Good luck with that.

[Moby]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

So anyone that does not agree with your interpretation is a ravenous wolf? That of course means that anyone that believes in a pretribulation rapture you consider to be a ravenous wolf.

I like to stick to facts. Here are the facts.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you want to hang around and go through all the things that will come to pass during the 70th week of Daniel, that's good for you. But for you to tell others that they have to go through all the things that will come to pass completely disregards what the word says.

Jesus also clearly taught:

Matthew 24

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

We also learn in the Old Testament, that the Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, but they served Gods.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

We also learn that the Jews will realize that they are not saved when the early summer harvest occurs.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

And of course we know that the Jews will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It seems you do not grasp the truth of the scriptures. I know the root our your dilemma.

Have the dead in Christ risen yet?

So the tares are gathered 1st. That occurs at the very end AFTER the wrath of God. But here we see that the righteous are gathered first and the rest are cast into the wrath of God.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So we see in Rev 14 before the wrath of God that it is the righteous that are gathered 1st. I suspect that, as usual, brother, you will have no answers and will want to CHERRY PICK the OLIVE TREE. Good luck with that.

Jesus is telling us in this passage to watch at every season making supplication that we may prevail to escape being overcharged with surfeiting, drunkenness, and the cares of this life, so that day come on the Christian  suddenly as a snare and they are not able to stand before the son of man:

Luke 21:34-36  But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare:  (35)  for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth.  (36)  But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

"That day" is the day of the Lord AFTER the 7 years of tribulation. The rapture/resurrection does indeed occur AFTER the 7 years of tribulation at the beginning of that day of the Lord as Revelation chapter 14 clearly proves:

Revelation 14:14-16  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 And those unrighteous left on the earth will be gathered for the wrath of God poured out the rest of that last year also called the year of His redeemed:

Revelation 14:17-20  And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  (18)  And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  (19)  And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.  (20)  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This link goes over all this proving there is only ONE resurrection/rapture of the body of Christ that occurs AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Edited October 10, 2020 by Moby

[Moby]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

And of course we know that the Jews will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It seems you do not grasp the truth of the scriptures. I know the root our your dilemma.

Please tell me you do not think all of physical Israel is going to be saved during the 7 years of tribulation because of this passage:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Because Paul would not contradict what he quoted out of the book of Isaiah two chapters earlier in the same letter where it is prophesied that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved when our Father finishes His Word upon the earth:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Moby said:

Please tell me you do not think all of physical Israel is going to be saved during the 7 years of tribulation because of this passage:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Because Paul would not contradict what he quoted out of the book of Isaiah two chapters earlier in the same letter where it is prophesied that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved when our Father finishes His Word upon the earth:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

When the Lord returns to the earth with His armies, it will be the remnant of the nation of Israel, those that have fled when the abomination of desolation is set up, that will be saved.

Now for YOUR bad news. What happens before the Lord returns with His armies? Their fullness, the Jews, will be greater than the fullness of the Gentiles. Ouch.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

[The Light]

18 hours ago, Moby said:

Jesus is telling us in this passage to watch at every season making supplication that we may prevail to escape being overcharged with surfeiting, drunkenness, and the cares of this life, so that day come on the Christian  suddenly as a snare and they are not able to stand before the son of man:

Luke 21:34-36  But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare:  (35)  for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth.  (36)  But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are not paying attention to what is being said. He is saying that we can be worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS. What things? We can escape all the things that are being talked about in the chapter. The false Christs, the wars and rumors of war, the famine and pestilence, the signs of the sun, moon and stars, and the sea and the waves roaring. He is not talking about merely escaping the day the of the Lord. He is talking about escaping the things that occur in the 70th week of Daniel.

 

Quote

"That day" is the day of the Lord AFTER the 7 years of tribulation.

I have no argument with that. However, Jesus is talking about more than just escaping the day of His wrath. He is talking about escaping ALL THESE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS. All these things are the things that He talked about in the chapter. This includes, but is not limited to the day of His wrath.

And we will stand before the son of man.

 

Quote

The rapture/resurrection does indeed occur AFTER the 7 years of tribulation at the beginning of that day of the Lord as Revelation chapter 14 clearly proves:

Revelation 14:14-16  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The argument that you have failed to address is that you said that there is only one resurrection and that the tares are gathered first. As we can see in Rev 14 the righteous are gathered first, thereby, proving what you are saying is in error. That is what you need to address, but we both know that you don't have the answer.

Additionally we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Rev 4, thereby provided more proof that you are in error.

 

Quote

This link goes over all this proving there is only ONE resurrection/rapture of the body of Christ that occurs AFTER the 7 years of tribulation:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

As I have already proven, by the Word, your link is incorrect. Additionally we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Rev 4, thereby providing more proof that you are in error.

You might need to take your link down.

Edited October 10, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

When the Lord returns to the earth with His armies, it will be the remnant of the nation of Israel, those that have fled when the abomination of desolation is set up, that will be saved.

Now for YOUR bad news. What happens before the Lord returns with His armies? Their fullness, the Jews, will be greater than the fullness of the Gentiles. Ouch.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Sorry bro but the word "fulness" does not mean the physical Jews will make up a greater body of the ONE olive tree than the Gentiles:

fulness ~ https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4138&t=KJV

The context within which Paul was using the word "fulness" proves he is desiring to save "some of them":

Romans 11:11-14  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.

There are very very few pure Jews left in the world today so if every one of them became a believer it would only be a small percentage of the number of believing Gentiles that exist world wide> But the scriptures clearly prove there will only be a remnant of all the Jews alive today who will be saved when the Lord finishes His Word on the earth:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.