Why can’t the CHURCH be in part of the 70th week?

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Hey, don’t add confusion and misdirection to my thread. Start your own thread if you want that question answered. ?

I wouldn't call it that. You see it's still about the church. 

Alot of people cause confusion and division by claiming the church is not mentioned after chapter 3.But "church" is only a word which means assembly. They completely overlook any assembly even if it's called by Christ. 

I remember a man asking me if I would like to attend his church. I said not really. Then I said, I'd like to attend Jesus's church when he calls it with the trump of God. That's one assembly I'd like to attend. 

I really don't care for many of the churches of this world. 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks for contributing here. Finally a pre tribber with something to offer....

So, it appears your scripture to support church not being in Daniel’s 70th week is this....Romans 11:25-27

25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:d a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

My take of this passage: Firstly, what exactly does it mean when Paul says, “the fullness of the Gentiles comes in?”  when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, I’m thinking when everyone in the church is now accounted for, then God will remove the blinders. But, when is the fullness? How do we know when that is?  I don’t think we can just say it is before Daniels 70th week begins. Why can’t it be full just before the abomination of desolation? Or some other time?  This passage is not totally definitive to me. What is your interpretation here? 

God is going to turn His attention to His chosen people at some point in time. I would have to believe that means the mostly Gentile Church is no longer on earth as we know that the fullness of the Gentiles has to come in before part of Israel can. We also have in Romans 11 this verse:

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It's been 2000 years. I don't see Israel jealous yet. It is likely that the Jews will become jealous when the rapture of the Church happens and then the Jews will say:

Jer 8:20

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Church would be the early summer harvest from the early rains.

After God turns His attention to His chosen people it is the 12 tribes across the earth that begin to see that Jesus is the Messiah. The nation of Israel will not have its blindness removed until they see Jesus in the clouds in Rev 6, which is the same coming as Rev 14, which is the same coming as Matthew 24. The nation of Israel remains on earth in a place of protection during the wrath of God as they were not believers before he returned.

The 12 tribes will be caught up in the prewrath rapture at the coming of Jesus in Rev 6, Matt 24, Rev 14. This is the harvest of the latter rains. BTW, this harvest is the fall fruit harvest. The AOD happens 45 days before this harvest. That is why the scripture says:  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

If you understood nothing of these things and read the Bible and studied, the most likely conclusion you should arrive at is that the Church is raptured in a mid-tribulation rapture. However, if you understand the order of Revelation you would understand that that is impossible.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

It’s true, the word church vanishes after chapter 3, but what about the word “saints.”  That hasn’t vanished . Cant the church also be called saints? 

Certainly the Church can be called saints just as both the Church and the 12 tribes that accept the Messiah can be called the "Elect". The end times are meant to be sealed up until the last days. That's why it is imperative that you do not drag along conclusions from past days. These conclusions were made before all the facts were in. For instance, replacement theology. There is so much nonsense that has been passed down that the Church is Israel, simply because there was no Israel. Once Israel became a nation, did all that nonsense go away. No, it's growing. Instead of realizing that God keeps His promises and Israel is Israel in the Bible, so many substitute the Church. Then there is one about the Romans being the area where the Antichrist will come from because the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the Temple. Since the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple, the Antichrist has to be Roman. It is the 3rd Temple that the people of the prince that shall come destroys. This prince that shall come will be a king of the north, that will be given the stephanos crown, which is the symbol of the U. N. The point of all this is to really understand Revelation and Daniel you need to cast aside most of these teaching that have been passed down from the past and just read what the Word says. If you don't allow yourself to influenced by past teachings it all falls into place perfectly.

 

3 hours ago, Spock said:

And who are these people from Rev 12?

17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodc on the sand of the sea.

The woman in Rev 12 is the nation of Israel. The seed of the woman (her offspring) are the 12 tribes across the earth. Basically, when the AOD is set up on day 2475 those that flee without going back into their house, or don't delay their fleeing, IN JUDEA, will flee to the place prepared. The dragon is furious because he cannot get to the woman so he goes after the Jews around the world, who now have had their blindness removed, and keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

3 hours ago, Spock said:

 

By the way, do you believe in more than one rapture ?  By that I mean LIVING people caught up and changed to immortal in a twinkling of an eye? If so, how does this play out? 

 

Yes I believe in two raptures. The first rapture will be the secret pre tribulation rapture of the Church. It will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. The Lord Himself will come at the trump of God. It will be the early summer wheat harvest. (barley harvest is dead in Christ).

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

The second rapture will be the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The kings will beg for the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him that sits on the throne. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The Lord will remain in the clouds and send his angels. It is the fall fruit harvest, hence the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

These three groups of verses describe the same coming of Jesus. It is the harvest or gathering of the 12 tribes across the earth and the gathering from heaven of the Church as where the body is the eagles are gathered. The 144,000 are the 1st fruits and proof of the harvest of the 12 tribes, as acceptable first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest. When this harvest occurs the world is cast into the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will remain on earth and will already be in the protected place.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Spock]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Certainly the Church can be called saints just as both the Church and the 12 tribes that accept the Messiah can be called the "Elect". The end times are meant to be sealed up until the last days. That's why it is imperative that you do not drag along conclusions from past days. These conclusions were made before all the facts were in. For instance, replacement theology. There is so much nonsense that has been passed down that the Church is Israel, simply because there was no Israel. Once Israel became a nation, did all that nonsense go away. No, it's growing. Instead of realizing that God keeps His promises and Israel is Israel in the Bible, so many substitute the Church. Then there is one about the Romans being the area where the Antichrist will come from because the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the Temple. Since the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple, the Antichrist has to be Roman. It is the 3rd Temple that the people of the prince that shall come destroys. This prince that shall come will be a king of the north, that will be given the stephanos crown, which is the symbol of the U. N. The point of all this is to really understand Revelation and Daniel you need to cast aside most of these teaching that have been passed down from the past and just read what the Word says. If you don't allow yourself to influenced by past teachings it all falls into place perfectly.

 

The woman in Rev 12 is the nation of Israel. The seed of the woman (her offspring) are the 12 tribes across the earth. Basically, when the AOD is set up on day 2475 those that flee without going back into their house, or don't delay their fleeing, IN JUDEA, will flee to the place prepared. The dragon is furious because he cannot get to the woman so he goes after the Jews around the world, who now have had their blindness removed, and keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

Yes I believe in two raptures. The first rapture will be the secret pre tribulation rapture of the Church. It will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. The Lord Himself will come at the trump of God. It will be the early summer wheat harvest. (barley harvest is dead in Christ).

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

The second rapture will be the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. The kings will beg for the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him that sits on the throne. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The Lord will remain in the clouds and send his angels. It is the fall fruit harvest, hence the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

These three groups of verses describe the same coming of Jesus. It is the harvest or gathering of the 12 tribes across the earth and the gathering from heaven of the Church as where the body is the eagles are gathered. The 144,000 are the 1st fruits and proof of the harvest of the 12 tribes, as acceptable first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest. When this harvest occurs the world is cast into the wrath of God. The nation of Israel will remain on earth and will already be in the protected place.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Great rebuttal Light. Just curious, do you have a link to a proposed timeline? I’d be interested to view it. 
 

you did say one thing that has confused me....”These three groups of verses describe the same coming of Jesus.”

Are you saying Rev 6:12, Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 14 are all saying the same thing referring to the rapture of the 12 tribes?  If so, how long do you have the saved 12 tribes On earth before Jesus comes and gets them. 
 

Honestly, I’ve not considered more than one rapture so I’d at least like to read the basis for saying this will occur. Thanks.

spock

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Great rebuttal Light. Just curious, do you have a link to a proposed timeline? I’d be interested to view it. 

No, I don't have a link as these are the things that I see. I know there are others that believe in two raptures but there are usually differences in what I believe. What I found is when people believe in a pretribulation raputre, they make so many mistakes in the timing of what is happening that others can argue against it. For instance, people that believe in a pretribulation Rapture have to believe that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming WHEN JESUS RETURNS WITH HIS ARMIES and sets up His kingdom on earth. This coming is really the coming of Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. It occurs here:

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Matthew 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you want to understand Revelation, you need to line up these two events. In fact, you need to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation 6. All of Matthew 24 is talking end times. There is no Church age or anything else going on in Matthew 24. Jesus tells you that false Christ are coming, He tells you there will be wars with nation rising against nation. He tells you there will be famines and pestilence. These are the beginning of sorrows. They also line up perfectly with the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. Then in Matt 24 we get the AOD being setup and this leads to the great tribulation. When we go to the 5th seal we see the great tribulation.

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is proof that it is the great tribulation in the 5th seal. We see those in the 5th seal arrayed in white robes.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I do want to point out one thing. There are those that claim that those cosmic signs at the 6th seal are not the same as those in Matthew 24. They claim that in Rev 6, the moon is as blood, but in Matthew 24 the moon does not give light. All you have to do is go look at a lunar eclipse on YouTube and you will see that before the moon turns as blood in a lunar eclipse, the moon first goes dark before the red light bends causing the moon to be as blood.

Anyway, any timeline that does not line up the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is incorrect.

1 hour ago, Spock said:

 

you did say one thing that has confused me....”These three groups of verses describe the same coming of Jesus.”

Are you saying Rev 6:12, Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 14 are all saying the same thing referring to the rapture of the 12 tribes?

Yes, but it is Rev 6:12-15. All three are describing the same event, the coming Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes. I already showed you where we can see the great tribulation in Matt 24 and also at the 5th seal. Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What happens after the great tribulation. In Matt 24 we saw above that Jesus returns and sends his angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. In Rev 6 at the 6th seal we see that the kings want the mountains to fall on them and hide them from Jesus. Then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So what happens in Rev 14 after the great tribulation which I showed above. Jesus comes on a white cloud and harvest the earth. Then another angel swings his sickle and cast those into the wrath of God, just like you see in at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.

We have more proof in Rev 15. We see those that had gotten victory over the beast, with the blood of the lamb and notice that they sing the song of Moses. These are of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

 If so, how long do you have the saved 12 tribes On earth before Jesus comes and gets them. 

I believe they will be here for the full week. So when Jesus comes to rapture them, the week is over. Without understanding these things you should conclude a mid tribulation rapture because because of this verse:

Dan 12

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

But if we consider this verse, we can see that the AOD happens toward the end of the week and there is a time, times and half a time wrath of God. Most people force the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the AOD to occur at the same time as it will not fit their timeline. They try to cram everything into 1 week, but the wrath of God occurs after the week is over as we can see if we just put things where the scripture says they go.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

¹² Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

 

Honestly, I’ve not considered more than one rapture so I’d at least like to read the basis for saying this will occur. Thanks.

spock

 

I can only tell you how I saw it and that was from this verse:

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

When I read this, I realized that God had seen the fathers of the Jews as the 1st ripe in the fig tree at her first time. But what did that mean? I did some research on the fig tree and realized that the fig tree has two harvests a year. The first crop is the breba crop and the second harvest is the main harvest. Had the Jews not gone after other Gods, they would have been the 1st harvest as that is what is meant by the fig tree at her 1st time. And of course, learn the parable of the fig tree. Once you understand the order of Revelation you will start seeing and understandings things you never saw before.

[R. Hartono]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

And who are these people from Rev 12?

17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodc on the sand of the sea.

We need to see the whole picture of Rev 12 to understand who are the remnant.

By the way, do you believe in more than one rapture ?  By that I mean LIVING people caught up and changed to immortal in a twinkling of an eye? If so, how does this play out?

John saw only one appearance of Christ on the cloud (He didnt land on the ground) thats why the tribes of the world shall mourn.

^{Rev 1 7} Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Edited September 5, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

 

Quote

I hear so many pre tribbers say Daniels 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 is only meant for Israel and Daniel’s people (Jews).  And they rightfully cite Daniel 9:24, which says....“Seventy weeks are decreed

about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression and to put an end totsin,...”

Its true that after the Gentile's fullness is reached (God's patience is over and wicked sins ripened for judgment of the GT), then The 2 Witnesses of the Hebrew prophets and the 144000 (are all Daniel's people), literal Hebrew, will be assigned at the 70th week to replace the church, the world somehow returns to the OT style where God punish wicked people severely via these Two Witnesses, remember God lead the Hebrew in many bloody battle with the Egypt and Arabs. Its no longer peaceful evangelism by the removed church.

The Revelation 7 explains the 144000 literal tribe of Israel, not christians, because christians do not belong to any tribe. Only God knows where they are after the kingdom of Solomon split in two. Rev 7 also explains the great multitude are already in heaven in front of the Throne (raptured saints). These 144000 are sealed to initiate their assignment as servants of God as the church is already rapture.

Quote

Rev 14 are all saying the same thing referring to the rapture of the 12 tribes?  If so, how long do you have the saved 12 tribes On earth before Jesus comes and gets them.

Jesus will meet them after the battle of Armageddon where He will then land His feet on the place probably the same spot He raised 2000 years ago :

Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

FULFILLED :

Rev 14 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

As written in Zechariah 14 3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones (raptured saints) with Him.…

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Joulre2abba]

Why do you want the church to mingle with the Jews? Why do you want the church to go through the Tribulation along with the Jews?

This is now the church age of grace.

The Tribulation is not the church age of grace.

It's a time of wrath. The apostle Paul wrote that the chruch is not destined for wrath.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Joulre2abba

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Why do you want the church to mingle with the Jews? Why do you want the church to go through the Tribulation along with the Jews?

This is now the church age of grace.

The Tribulation is not the church age of grace.

It's a time of wrath. The apostle Paul wrote that the chruch is not destined for wrath.

Greetings my brother, 

Fair enough....but who deemed the entire 7 year week (Daniels 70th) a time of God’s wrath?  According to Revelation only 3.5 years (42 months, 1260 days) is the time of wrath. 
 

I think pre tribbers made the entire 7 years a time of wrath based on conjecture and inference, not on the word of God.  Maybe they are right, but then again, maybe not. Can you show me where God’s wrath is 7 years from the Word?  Can you show me why the church can’t commingle with Jews in “a part” of the week?  Admittedly, I do not believe the church will be here for sure in the final 3.5 years, known as the GREAT TRIBULATION. 

[Spock]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

No, I don't have a link as these are the things that I see. I know there are others that believe in two raptures but there are usually differences in what I believe. What I found is when people believe in a pretribulation raputre, they make so many mistakes in the timing of what is happening that others can argue against it. For instance, people that believe in a pretribulation Rapture have to believe that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming WHEN JESUS RETURNS WITH HIS ARMIES and sets up His kingdom on earth. This coming is really the coming of Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. It occurs here:

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Matthew 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you want to understand Revelation, you need to line up these two events. In fact, you need to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation 6. All of Matthew 24 is talking end times. There is no Church age or anything else going on in Matthew 24. Jesus tells you that false Christ are coming, He tells you there will be wars with nation rising against nation. He tells you there will be famines and pestilence. These are the beginning of sorrows. They also line up perfectly with the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. Then in Matt 24 we get the AOD being setup and this leads to the great tribulation. When we go to the 5th seal we see the great tribulation.

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is proof that it is the great tribulation in the 5th seal. We see those in the 5th seal arrayed in white robes.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I do want to point out one thing. There are those that claim that those cosmic signs at the 6th seal are not the same as those in Matthew 24. They claim that in Rev 6, the moon is as blood, but in Matthew 24 the moon does not give light. All you have to do is go look at a lunar eclipse on YouTube and you will see that before the moon turns as blood in a lunar eclipse, the moon first goes dark before the red light bends causing the moon to be as blood.

Anyway, any timeline that does not line up the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is incorrect.

Yes, but it is Rev 6:12-15. All three are describing the same event, the coming Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes. I already showed you where we can see the great tribulation in Matt 24 and also at the 5th seal. Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What happens after the great tribulation. In Matt 24 we saw above that Jesus returns and sends his angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. In Rev 6 at the 6th seal we see that the kings want the mountains to fall on them and hide them from Jesus. Then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So what happens in Rev 14 after the great tribulation which I showed above. Jesus comes on a white cloud and harvest the earth. Then another angel swings his sickle and cast those into the wrath of God, just like you see in at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.

We have more proof in Rev 15. We see those that had gotten victory over the beast, with the blood of the lamb and notice that they sing the song of Moses. These are of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

I believe they will be here for the full week. So when Jesus comes to rapture them, the week is over. Without understanding these things you should conclude a mid tribulation rapture because because of this verse:

Dan 12

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

But if we consider this verse, we can see that the AOD happens toward the end of the week and there is a time, times and half a time wrath of God. Most people force the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the AOD to occur at the same time as it will not fit their timeline. They try to cram everything into 1 week, but the wrath of God occurs after the week is over as we can see if we just put things where the scripture says they go.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

¹² Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

I can only tell you how I saw it and that was from this verse:

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

When I read this, I realized that God had seen the fathers of the Jews as the 1st ripe in the fig tree at her first time. But what did that mean? I did some research on the fig tree and realized that the fig tree has two harvests a year. The first crop is the breba crop and the second harvest is the main harvest. Had the Jews not gone after other Gods, they would have been the 1st harvest as that is what is meant by the fig tree at her 1st time. And of course, learn the parable of the fig tree. Once you understand the order of Revelation you will start seeing and understandings things you never saw before.

Thanks Light for answering all my questions. I can see you have given this much thought and it all makes sense to you. I haven’t quite reached that point yet (everything makes sense) but I think God knows this motivates me to keep searching for the Truth! 
 

only one thing that I would like your feedback on at this time....have you considered the possibility that the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended into Heaven and have been in play for about 2000 years?  Thus, seal 5 martyrs would be martyrs from the time Jesus ascended till present...perhaps Stephen being the first. And they are having to wait a little longer until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.  This would mean the 6th seal is up next and could very well mean the return of Christ in the clouds to pick up his church. Everything after that moment is the wrath of God....this is why there was silence in heaven for 30 minutes....a very sobering moment. 
 

let me know what you think. Thanks,

spock