Why can’t the CHURCH be in part of the 70th week?

[Biblican]

Hi!  You are confusing I Thessalonians with the pre-trib rapture. Paul is talking about what happens when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised. This correlates with Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24. This is the first resurrection. At that time all the believers will be raptured. It will be the only time that there will not be any Christians on earth. This is prior to God's pouring out His wrath upon the beast empire. The pre-trib rapture takes place before the tribulation which starts when the antichrist is revealed. It's very clear that only the Philadelphian remnant will be raptured prior to the tribulation, but all true Christians will be gathered when Jesus returns. Its obvious that Jezebel and her followers will not make the rapture as they are promised that they will go through it unless they repent.

[JohnR7]

16 hours ago, luigi said:

These algae blooms, often referred to as red tides, are increasing throughout the earth in conjunction with increasing global warming.

On the great lakes Red Tide has to do with the runoff from the fertilizer used for our lawn and for our crops. Not only do red tides create temporarily toxic oceans, they can also deplete the water of dissolved oxygen, causing a phenomenon known as a dead zone. When the algae die, they become a feast for microbes, like bacteria.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by JohnR7

[Spock]

10 hours ago, Biblican said:

Hi!  You are confusing I Thessalonians with the pre-trib rapture. Paul is talking about what happens when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised. This correlates with Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24. This is the first resurrection. At that time all the believers will be raptured. It will be the only time that there will not be any Christians on earth. This is prior to God's pouring out His wrath upon the beast empire. The pre-trib rapture takes place before the tribulation which starts when the antichrist is revealed. It's very clear that only the Philadelphian remnant will be raptured prior to the tribulation, but all true Christians will be gathered when Jesus returns. Its obvious that Jezebel and her followers will not make the rapture as they are promised that they will go through it unless they repent.

Now I’m confused here. The pre trib people do say 1 thess 4 is the pre Trib rapture. 
 

How many raptures do you see in the Bible? 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Spock said:

You probably know the Pre Trib people finally found their explanation/rebuttal for the 2 thess 2 quandary they were in.

They found some evidence to support the Greek word “apostacia “to mean departure, not from the truth, but rather from the world. In other words, the falling away is now the departure, as in rapture. 
 

so, they now say 2 thess 2 says this.....the day of Christ won’t happen until two things occur:

1. Departure....rapture

2. man of sin is revealed.....some pre tribbers say this occurs at the covenant being confirmed, others say this occurs at the nomination of desolation.

 Could this “new”interpretation of apostacia be correct?  I don’t think so, although I suppose there is a possibility it could be...but they (Pre tribbers) sure do think it is right (The new definition).  Finally, they have something to explain 2 thess 2. For a long time, they we’re getting punched in the face over and over regarding this passage in 2 thess 2.  Now, with this new fresh interpretation, they feel they have the rebuttal to stop the bleeding. 
 

But in the long run, I guess it’s up to you to decide who you think is right.  
spock

Sorry, Spock, I've been on a sabbatical - time off for other things: three 6th grade students doing "distance learning." They all needed a lot of help. 

Spock, do you believe Paul knew what he was writing in 2 Thes. 2?  For example, why did he write, "and now you know what is restraining..." (Who the restrainer is.) Many today STILL don't know because they just don't believe Paul.  I can tell you why he wrote that phrase: He JUST TOLD US who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so perhaps only those who had his first letter would understand. (WHY He did it we can only guess.)

The next key is found in the two words near the end of verse 3: "be revealed." Many translations have it as "IS revealed.)

Then there is the parallelism in this passage:

Restrainer retraining - man of sin prevented from being revealed (as the Beast of Rev. 13)
Restrainer removed - taken out of the way - and the man of sin IS (be) revealed.

It is absolute: at the end of verse 3 the man of sin has been (is) revealed. Question: how in the world did he GET revealed? Only one way: the restrainer has been removed - taken out of the way. 

I can only guess that Paul feared this letter might fall into the hands of the Romans, so he wrote it in a manner that if a Roman read it, they would not understand he was explaining the rapture. It is only a guess. OF COURSE Paul could have been more clear, but behind it all, we must understand the Holy Spirit must have given us what we need. 

Next, for your original question: do you believe the Gospel of the Kingdom is what Paul taught- or do you believe Paul's gospel was a different gospel - specific for Gentiles? I believe His gospel is specific for Gentiles, but Jews can partake if they believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection for the removal of sins.  As I see it, it goes like this:

JEWISH time->->Jesus death, burial, resurrection->->TIME for Israel to believe(Paul sent to Gentiles: church age)-> 70th week ->

The Gentile church age is only a parenthesis. The pretrib rapture will END the church age, and "TIME" will go right back to where it left off: with the Jews REJECTING Christ: their Messiah. This is what I see Paul teaching us. He is where to go for rapture information. 

[luigi]

7 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

On the great lakes Red Tide has to do with the runoff from the fertilizer used for our lawn and for our crops. Not only do red tides create temporarily toxic oceans, they can also deplete the water of dissolved oxygen, causing a phenomenon known as a dead zone. When the algae die, they become a feast for microbes, like bacteria.

 

Thanks for the information JohnR7,

I was on the Gulf coast of Florida circa five years back, and I couldn't go swimming due to red tide the whole time I was there. Dead fish all over the shores. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Spock, I've been on a sabbatical - time off for other things: three 6th grade students doing "distance learning." They all needed a lot of help. 

Spock, do you believe Paul knew what he was writing in 2 Thes. 2?  For example, why did he write, "and now you know what is restraining..." (Who the restrainer is.) Many today STILL don't know because they just don't believe Paul.  I can tell you why he wrote that phrase: He JUST TOLD US who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so perhaps only those who had his first letter would understand. (WHY He did it we can only guess.)

The next key is found in the two words near the end of verse 3: "be revealed." Many translations have it as "IS revealed.)

Then there is the parallelism in this passage:

Restrainer retraining - man of sin prevented from being revealed (as the Beast of Rev. 13)
Restrainer removed - taken out of the way - and the man of sin IS (be) revealed.

It is absolute: at the end of verse 3 the man of sin has been (is) revealed. Question: how in the world did he GET revealed? Only one way: the restrainer has been removed - taken out of the way. 

I can only guess that Paul feared this letter might fall into the hands of the Romans, so he wrote it in a manner that if a Roman read it, they would not understand he was explaining the rapture. It is only a guess. OF COURSE Paul could have been more clear, but behind it all, we must understand the Holy Spirit must have given us what we need. 

Next, for your original question: do you believe the Gospel of the Kingdom is what Paul taught- or do you believe Paul's gospel was a different gospel - specific for Gentiles? I believe His gospel is specific for Gentiles, but Jews can partake if they believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection for the removal of sins.  As I see it, it goes like this:

JEWISH time->->Jesus death, burial, resurrection->->TIME for Israel to believe(Paul sent to Gentiles: church age)-> 70th week ->

The Gentile church age is only a parenthesis. The pretrib rapture will END the church age, and "TIME" will go right back to where it left off: with the Jews REJECTING Christ: their Messiah. This is what I see Paul teaching us. He is where to go for rapture information. 

Greetings my brother,

okay, let’s assume the church is restraining the Beast from being revealed. Many believe the Beast is revealed at the abomination of desolation.....so why can’t the rapture take place simultaneously with the abomination?  Again, why do you believe it has to occur 3.5 years before the abomination?  
 

I know you believe the church is not to be included in Daniel’s 70th week, but now that you are here on this thread....show us all the biblical support backing up that belief>>>>>>.CHURCH CANT BE PRESENT DURING DANIELS 70th WEEK!”  Israel is present during the church age.....so why can’t church be present during 70th week. 

Looking forward to reading your Biblical basis, brother.....convince me!

spock eating popcorn 

[Spock]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:09 AM, luigi said:

As the things thrown down causing the results described are all attributed to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce; they would then be related in nature.

1) Right now for example, the description of hail and fire mingled with blood, I think describes some of the results being seen throughout areas experiencing these super fires, like throughout the West today, and in Australia a few months back, with fire tornadoes and other weather phenomena, along with people's lives (their blood) being lost.

2) A great mountain burning with fire thrown into the sea in which 1/3 of the earth's seas turn to blood, I likewise see being metaphors, where the mountain represents the mountain of fertilizer runoff that find their way into rivers leading into the world's seas causing algae blooms. These algae blooms, often referred to as red tides, are increasing throughout the earth in conjunction with increasing global warming.

3) The star which falls from heaven whose name is wormwood is similar in metaphor to the star Absalon/Apollyon, the destroyer who is given the key to the bottomless pit allowing the beast to ascend from the bottomless pit, which is another description for the sea from which the beast shall ascend. As the beast who shall ascend from the sea is due to Satan providing the beast with his power, the star of the bottomless pit Absalon/Apollyon, the destroyer, is realized as another description for the fallen Star Satan. The fallen star Wormwood is then realized as one of the fallen angels who provide mankind with the destructive illumination that causes 1/3 of earth's rivers and underground aquifers to become bitter and poisonous. Currently, the process of hydraulic fracturing (a.k.a. fracking) deep beneath earth's surface is poisoning underground aquifers, many of which rise to the surface in rivers. A documentary a few years back pointed out that while then approximately 5% of all fracking operations were leaking into aquifers, that within 30 years it was estimated that approximately 90% of all fracking operations would eventually being leaking.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Luigi,

I happen to believe the trumpets and bowls are the WRATH OF GOD and have NOT BEEN RELEASED YET, but will be AFTER the abomination of desolation when we are in the great tribulation.  
 

What you are describing is not the wrath of God, but rather man’s carelessness in not taking care of the planet.  I think you and I interpret how Revelation plays out differently. 

[The Light]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

HENCE, not possible for Jesus to return in an hour that we can know.

(NOT LIKE THAT IN ANY WAY SUPPORTS THE CHANGING OF THE ENTIRE TEACHING GIVEN IN 2 THESSALONIANS) 


WE DO KNOW WHAT PAUL TEACHES TO THE NEW COVENANT CHURCH IN THESSALONICA  
 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And in case you missed it or didn't quite understand the point or maybe NEEDED IT SAID IN ANOTHER WAY, as apparently SOMEONE thought might happen,  THE WORD through Paul  goes on to say

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

Having added a bit more information, still, THE WORD through Paul, wants to make TRIPLE sure you have been told and THERE COULD NOT BE ANY WAY IN WHICH TO MISUNDERSTAND what we are being told so goes on to say

Even him,whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


THEN,  ADDS a HUGE WARNING TO THOSE WHO FEEL THEY MIGHT NOT LIKE TO HEED THAT TRUTH JUST GIVEN 3 times in a row,

 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


Can you imagine

on the day of JUDGMENT

trying to EXPLAIN TO THE LORD,

how you failed to understand this?  

Let me ask you this> 

IF THERE WAS A PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE BEING TAUGHT, AND YOU WERE PAUL 

AND YOU HAD TO CLEAR UP THE FALSE TEACHING OF IT

WHAT WORDS WOULD YOU USE THAT WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THESE?  

 

Thank you for taking the time to prove the point I was making.

So Paul does tell us that that day, the day of the Lord, will not take the believer by surprise.

1 Thes 5

 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Further, Jesus, pinpoints this coming.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So if we know Jesus is coming immediately after the tribulation, we're set. We know that the abomination of desolation has to happen first. We know Jerusalem is going to be surround by armies.

So there you have it. The believers will not be surprised at all when Jesus is coming. In fact, they will know that He is coming at the last trump, blown on the feast of trumpets. And who are these believers. They are the 12 tribes across the earth that will be regrafted. We know that will be a great harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth because there are 144,000 first fruits that GUARANTEE this harvest.

So when are these 12 twelve tribes going to see that Jesus is the Messiah? Paul does not want you to be ignorant about this.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This occurs before the 70th week of Daniel begins. And when is the event of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in?

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So we know when the Lord is coming and we also know that He is coming in an hour that we think not.

It's pretty easy to conclude that there will be two raptures. One for his church before the 70th week and one for the regrafted 12 tribes across the earth before the wrath of God begins. The nation of  Israel will remain on earth in a place of protection during the wrath of God, just like the Word says.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

15 minutes ago, Spock said:

Greetings my brother,

okay, let’s assume the church is restraining the Beast from being revealed. Many believe the Beast is revealed at the abomination of desolation.....so why can’t the rapture take place simultaneously with the abomination?  Again, why do you believe it has to occur 3.5 years before the abomination?  
 

I know you believe the church is not to be included in Daniel’s 70th week, but now that you are here on this thread....show us all the biblical support backing up that belief>>>>>>.CHURCH CANT BE PRESENT DURING DANIELS 70th WEEK!”  Israel is present during the church age.....so why can’t church be present during 70th week. 

Looking forward to reading your Biblical basis, brother.....convince me!

spock eating popcorn 

Simple, WRATH starts before the abomination. The DAY of wrath starts at the 6th seal, and we have no appointments with His wrath. Mediate on 1 thes. 5 and discover that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. There will be no time between: it is going to change from the age of grace to the Day of the Lord and wrath INSTANTLY at the rapture. 

John confirms this, showing the raptured church in heaven just after the 6th seal.

[luigi]

18 minutes ago, Spock said:

Luigi,

I happen to believe the trumpets and bowls are the WRATH OF GOD and have NOT BEEN RELEASED YET, but will be AFTER the abomination of desolation when we are in the great tribulation.  
 

What you are describing is not the wrath of God, but rather man’s carelessness in not taking care of the planet. 

The Lord's angels illumine mankind with truth. The trumpet soundings are warning signs from the seven angels of what is to come should man continue worshiping the things his hands produce; those of which in Revelation 8, through fossil fuels and related means. One third of the earth is destroyed by fossil fuel use, whereas the entire ecosystem is destroyed by the Lord's wrath in Revelation 16, which according to scripture doesn't commence until the conclusion of the 42 months of the two witnesses testimony, coinciding with the conclusion of the beast's 42 month reign, at which time the Lord shall then commence to reign on the earth.

As such, the first four trumpet warnings Revelation 8, preceding the beasts ascension from the bottomless pit (a.k.a., the sea in Revelation 13), indicates these as prior to when the Lords wrath commences. The next two more dire sounding warnings in which the beast ascends in Revelation 9, would therefore also precede the wrath of God on the masses. And the final seventh trumpet warning is that in which the Lord commences to reign (Revelation 11:15), at which point the Lord's wrath upon the beast's worshippers is about to commence (Revelation 11:18).

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Edited September 12, 2020 by luigi