The first of the seven warnings of plagues the earth will see.

[luigi]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That theory could ONLY be arrived at by pulling the first seal out of its context. It would be ignoring chapters 4 & 5. For example in Rev. 5:

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

What is John telling us here? What did Jesus prevail over to become worthy to open the seals? He prevailed over death: He rose from the dead - around 32 AD. Then in verse 6 John saw Him the moment He entered the throne room, after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. When? Same time: around 32 AD. Then notice that the Holy Spirit was send down the moment Jesus arrived - exactly as He said He would do. When? Around 32 AD. The first thing Jesus did was get the book from the Father (32 AD) and begin opening the seals. IN CONTEXT then, the first seal was opened around 32 AD and could only represent the church - the only righteous entity (color white) on earth at the time.  

Your theory then, is around 2000 years off. 

Sorry, the 5th seal was opened in time for Stephen's death. They were church age martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs they would know that Judgment had already started and would be ended in whatever was left of 7 years. Make no mistake, they are church age martyrs. You are right that they were told they must wait (for judgment) until the complete number is killed. God knows this number. That number will be complete when the rapture comes just before the 6th seal and ends the church age - and starts the Day of the Lord. 

Don't stare at a tree and miss the forest! Back up! Look again! John does not even get introduced to the beast (and the Beast does not rise to power) until chapter 13! The DAY starts over 3.5 years before the man of sin is revealed and become the Beast that rises.  There is NOTHING about the Beast until chapter 13 in Revelation. The 70th week does not start until the 7th seal, one seal after the DAY starts. 

The beast is out and about in Revelation 11, and after killing the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 42 month testimony (which coincides with the 42 months allotted the beast), the seventh seal is then opened, upon which the Lord's wrath is set to commence upon the beast's worshippers. So unless there are two wraths of God, the wrath of God under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, is the same wrath of God that commences at the conclusion of the two witnesses 42 month testimony, which is also the beast's 42 months in power, in Revelation 11:15-18, after the seventh angel sounds. 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[iamlamad]

Just now, luigi said:

The beast is out and about in Revelation 11, and after killing the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 42 month testimony (which coincides with the 42 months allotted the beast), the seventh seal is then opened, upon which the Lord's wrath is set to commence upon the beast's worshippers. So unless there are two wraths of God, the wrath of God under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, is the same wrath of God that commences at the conclusion of the two witnesses 42 month testimony, which is also the beast's 42 months in power, in Revelation 11:15-18, after the seventh angel sounds. 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are mistaken because you did not recognize 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. The hard to see and read text is a parenthesis. It is OUTSIDE John's chronology. Jesus took John (in the vision) down a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week in a parenthesis. For chronology, jump from verse 3 to verse 14. 

¹And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When then will the Two Witnesses be killed? Let's use arithmetic: They BEGIN their testimony VERY near the midpoint of the week. (verse 11:2 is the start of the 42 month countdown, proving the midpoint.)

They begin just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days. Now they are just 3 1/2 days from the END of the week, and they are killed, their 1260 days being over. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and are then resurrected (with all the other Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial that ends the week and at that worst ever earthquake.

7th seal   - official start of the 70th week.

7th trumpet - marks the exact midpoint

th vial - ends the week

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken because you did not recognize 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. The hard to see and read text is a parenthesis. It is OUTSIDE John's chronology. Jesus took John (in the vision) down a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week in a parenthesis. For chronology, jump from verse 3 to verse 14. 

¹And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When then will the Two Witnesses be killed? Let's use arithmetic: They BEGIN their testimony VERY near the midpoint of the week. (verse 11:2 is the start of the 42 month countdown, proving the midpoint.)

They begin just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days. Now they are just 3 1/2 days from the END of the week, and they are killed, their 1260 days being over. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and are then resurrected (with all the other Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial that ends the week and at that worst ever earthquake.

7th seal   - official start of the 70th week.

7th trumpet - marks the exact midpoint

th vial - ends the week

I'd be careful twisting the Word to omit what the Lord provides.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I'd be careful twisting the Word to omit what the Lord provides.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This is not twisting, it is understanding. 

There is a real problem in chapter 11. Have you not discovered it yet?

11:2 must be midpoint because the 42 month countdown begins right here in verse 2.

11:3 must be midpoint because the 1260 day countdown begins right here in verse 3.
(So far, so good.)

12:6: Must be midpoint:  ANOTHER countdown starting at this verse, but it "appears" that the timing of chapter 12 is not after 1260 days! John takes the readers down the entire last half of the week in verses 11:4 through 11:13. Without a parenthesis, then the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the week, and everything after the 7th trumpet comes AFTER the week. Yet, there is another 42 month countdown in chapter 13, proving that chapter is a midpoint chapter! 

How to solve this dilemma:

Some work backwards and insist the two Witnesses actually show up and testify in the first half (when John shows they showing up just days before the midpoint).

Some put parenthesis from the start of chapter 10 to 11:14, making the 42 months and 1260 days a part of a parenthesis. I don't buy this theory either. 

Some (perhaps you fit here?) just ignore the problem and carry on in bliss.

By the way, John CERTAINLY used parenthesis, but they had no marks for them when John wrote. Here is a good example:

Rev. 20:

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

Without a parenthesis here, the "first resurrection" must be tied to the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years. We all know that is not the intent of the Author.

The conclusion then is simple: John USED parentheses, but we must find them with diligent study.  

[luigi]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

This is not twisting, it is understanding. 

There is a real problem in chapter 11. Have you not discovered it yet?

11:2 must be midpoint because the 42 month countdown begins right here in verse 2.

11:3 must be midpoint because the 1260 day countdown begins right here in verse 3.
(So far, so good.)

12:6: Must be midpoint:  ANOTHER countdown starting at this verse, but it "appears" that the timing of chapter 12 is not after 1260 days! John takes the readers down the entire last half of the week in verses 11:4 through 11:13. Without a parenthesis, then the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the week, and everything after the 7th trumpet comes AFTER the week. Yet, there is another 42 month countdown in chapter 13, proving that chapter is a midpoint chapter! 

How to solve this dilemma:

Some work backwards and insist the two Witnesses actually show up and testify in the first half (when John shows they showing up just days before the midpoint).

Some put parenthesis from the start of chapter 10 to 11:14, making the 42 months and 1260 days a part of a parenthesis. I don't buy this theory either. 

Some (perhaps you fit here?) just ignore the problem and carry on in bliss.

By the way, John CERTAINLY used parenthesis, but they had no marks for them when John wrote. Here is a good example:

Rev. 20:

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

Without a parenthesis here, the "first resurrection" must be tied to the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years. We all know that is not the intent of the Author.

The conclusion then is simple: John USED parentheses, but we must find them with diligent study.  

Your claim stands by removing the data in Revelation 11:4-13. Spin it anyway you like, it remains your omitting the data the Lord provides.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

The beast is out and about in Revelation 11, and after killing the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 42 month testimony (which coincides with the 42 months allotted the beast), the seventh seal is then opened, upon which the Lord's wrath is set to commence upon the beast's worshippers. So unless there are two wraths of God, the wrath of God under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, is the same wrath of God that commences at the conclusion of the two witnesses 42 month testimony, which is also the beast's 42 months in power, in Revelation 11:15-18, after the seventh angel sounds. 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

he may be "out and about" but no one will know he is the beast because he will not be revealed as the beast until chapter 11 when He enters the temple and declares he is God.  He will just be a man. Perhaps unknown, or perhaps a military leader - or other. 

I am convinced, the 7th angel will sound his trumpet at the moment the man of sin declares he is God. 

thy wrath is come  God's wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath, at the 6th seal. This is just confirming God is STILL angry. 

Revelation 11:15  vs  Revelation 6:12  Sorry, you cannot tie these together as if they happen together.  Rev. 6:12 is before any part of the 7oth week, and Rev. 11:15 is at the midpoint of the week. You MUST keep TIME in mind when studying Revelation. 

SAME WRATH  Yes, of course same wrath: all this means is that GOD STAYS ANGRY through the entire 70th week. You seem to ignore TIME as you read through Revelation. From 8:1 to 11:1 is very close to 3 1/2 years of time passing. 

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, luigi said:

Your claim stands by removing the data in Revelation 11:4-13. Spin it anyway you like, it remains your omitting the data the Lord provides.

Do you not understand a parenthesis? NOTHING is removed. It is still there, but inside a parenthesis. That means, NOT IN the Chronology It certainly will happen but NOT in the timeframe of chapter 11. 

You seem to believe that all five mentions of the last 3.5 years will be countdowns to the end and all run together - at the same time. 
At least, I HOPE that is what you believe!

All God does here in the vision is taken John down a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week (chapters 11 to 16) with the two witnesses only; telling us what will happen to them late in the week when they finish their 1260 days.

In other words, CERTAINLY they will be killed, but NOT in the time-frame of chapter 11! they will be killed in the time-frame of chapter 16. 

I only lightened the print on those verses to show distinctly the chronology. They are still there. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by iamlamad

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

There is a real problem in chapter 11. Have you not discovered it yet?

11:2 must be midpoint because the 42 month countdown begins right here in verse 2.

11:3 must be midpoint because the 1260 day countdown begins right here in verse 3.
(So far, so good.)

12:6: Must be midpoint:  ANOTHER countdown starting at this verse, but it "appears" that the timing of chapter 12 is not after 1260 days! John takes the readers down the entire last half of the week in verses 11:4 through 11:13. Without a parenthesis, then the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the week, and everything after the 7th trumpet comes AFTER the week. Yet, there is another 42 month countdown in chapter 13, proving that chapter is a midpoint chapter! 

How to solve this dilemma:

Some work backwards and insist the two Witnesses actually show up and testify in the first half (when John shows they showing up just days before the midpoint).

Some put parenthesis from the start of chapter 10 to 11:14, making the 42 months and 1260 days a part of a parenthesis. I don't buy this theory either. 

Some (perhaps you fit here?) just ignore the problem and carry on in bliss.

By the way, John CERTAINLY used parenthesis, but they had no marks for them when John wrote. Here is a good example:

Rev. 20:

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

Without a parenthesis here, the "first resurrection" must be tied to the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years. We all know that is not the intent of the Author.

The conclusion then is simple: John USED parentheses, but we must find them with diligent study.  

The two witnesses show up at the midpoint of the week after the sacrifice of human lives has been stopped by the Abomination of desolation as described in Daniel 9:26-27; 11:31, & Isaiah 28:18-20. If you note, there is a covenant and agreement made with death and hell in Isaiah 28:18-20, where we also see death and hell under the fourth seal in Revelation 6, thereby possibly indicating the events in the first half of the week correlating with those under the fourth seal.

As for Revelation 12, I see this also returning in retrospect to the beginning of the week in which much tribulation is occurring, which then causes Satan and his angels to be cast down unto the earth, whereupon he will then open the bottomless pit and vest the beast with his power. As such, I would think that Revelation 12 would correlate with the events under the first four seals, along with the plagues of the first four angels sounding warnings in Revelation 8. The 1,260 days in Revelation 12, however, would also I think represent the second half of the week, and so the whole week is in Revelation 12.

Edited September 14, 2020 by luigi

[luigi]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

They begin just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, testify for 1260 days. Now they are just 3 1/2 days from the END of the week, and they are killed, their 1260 days being over. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and are then resurrected (with all the other Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial that ends the week and at that worst ever earthquake.

 

I will agree that the 7th vial in Revelation 16:18 & 20 is the global earthquake in which the beast's global system comes to an end. These events would therefore also correlate with those under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12 & 14. This then raises another question. Is the Lord's wrath in Revelation 6 & 16 where a great earthquake occurs and the world's nations collapse, the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19, which I assume is the third woe that comes quickly? I would think they are all the same. There is one major dilemma, however, that I still have no answer for: As the events under the seventh seal commence with the plagues in Revelation 8 that precede the opening of the bottomless pit in which the beast shall ascend, then how will the Lord's wrath have commenced prior to the beast's ascension?

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I will agree that the 7th vial in Revelation 16:18 & 20 is the global earthquake in which the beast's global system comes to an end. These events would therefore also correlate with those under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12 & 14. This then raises another question. Is the Lord's wrath in Revelation 6 & 16 where a great earthquake occurs and the world's nations collapse, the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19, which I assume is the third woe that comes quickly? I would think they are all the same. There is one major dilemma, however, that I still have no answer for: As the events under the seventh seal commence with the plagues in Revelation 8 that precede the opening of the bottomless pit in which the beast shall ascend, then how will the Lord's wrath have commenced prior to the beast's ascension?

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I will agree that the 7th vial in Revelation 16:18 & 20 is the global earthquake in which the beast's global system comes to an end.   This is not really true: it is the 70th week that comes to a close. Jesus does not return on the last day of the week, as many suppose. He returns some unknown time later as shown in Revelation 19. The beast will be captured and his 42 months end when Jesus returns and captures him. Without a doubt, the Beast's kingdom is severely damaged, as every city will fall. "Babylon" will fall. 

These events would therefore also correlate with those under the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12 & 14  Sorry, but the 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord before any part of the 70th week begins. "Seals" cannot correlate with anything later in the book: all seals are opened and then forgotten by Rev. chapter 9. It is a myth to say something like "the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal." (Not saying you would say this, but others have.) NO trumpet can correlate with any seal, except the 7th seal allows the book to be opened and the first trumpet is the next event. 

Is the Lord's wrath in Revelation 6 & 16 where a great earthquake occurs and the world's nations collapse, the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19  YES! Brilliant deduction! The earthquake of the Two witnesses' resurrection is indeed the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial.  (It is NOT the same earthquake as at the 6th seal. ) The third woe, 7th trumpet comes very shortly after the two witnesses SHOW UP - just before the midpoint of the week. 

how will the Lord's wrath have commenced prior to the beast's ascension?  Just take Revelation as written, and don't try to rearrange. 
God begins the DAY of His wrath (meaning, he gets angry!) at the 6th seal. He STAYS angry through the entire 70th week to the 7th vial and ends the week, and Jesus has wrath when He descends to Armageddon.  God has held off His wrath for 2000 years now. He has a right to stay angry a while. In other words, Revelation chapters 8 through 16 are ALL God's wrath.