The first of the seven warnings of plagues the earth will see.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, luigi said:

The two witnesses show up at the midpoint of the week after the sacrifice of human lives has been stopped by the Abomination of desolation as described in Daniel 9:26-27; 11:31, & Isaiah 28:18-20. If you note, there is a covenant and agreement made with death and hell in Isaiah 28:18-20, where we also see death and hell under the fourth seal in Revelation 6, thereby possibly indicating the events in the first half of the week correlating with those under the fourth seal.

As for Revelation 12, I see this also returning in retrospect to the beginning of the week in which much tribulation is occurring, which then causes Satan and his angels to be cast down unto the earth, whereupon he will then open the bottomless pit and vest the beast with his power. As such, I would think that Revelation 12 would correlate with the events under the first four seals, along with the plagues of the first four angels sounding warnings in Revelation 8. The 1,260 days in Revelation 12, however, would also I think represent the second half of the week, and so the whole week is in Revelation 12.

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit - is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. 

It is a fact: God showed John the events of the end times in the very order in which they will take place. There is no need to try and rearrange anything.

Leave chapter 12 where it is: a MIDPOINT chapter. This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon (the devil) and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. However, Jesus CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill him as a young boy, using King Herod. Those first 5 verses are a parenthesis and were a history lesson for John: about Christ's birth. His entire life on earth written in one verse here!

[luigi]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree that the 7th vial in Revelation 16:18 & 20 is the global earthquake in which the beast's global system comes to an end.   This is not really true: it is the 70th week that comes to a close. Jesus does not return on the last day of the week, as many suppose. He returns some unknown time later as shown in Revelation 19. The beast will be captured and his 42 months end when Jesus returns and captures him. Without a doubt, the Beast's kingdom is severely damaged, as every city will fall. "Babylon" will fall. 

Is the Lord's wrath in Revelation 6 & 16 where a great earthquake occurs and the world's nations collapse, the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19  YES! Brilliant deduction! The earthquake of the Two witnesses' resurrection is indeed the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial.  (It is NOT the same earthquake as at the 6th seal. ) The third woe, 7th trumpet comes very shortly after the two witnesses SHOW UP - just before the midpoint of the week. 

 

You agree that the great earthquake in Revelation 16:18 is the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19, and yet you claim that Jesus does not return at this time as many suppose. However, when the great earthquake in Revelation 11:19 & 16:18 occurs is when the kingdoms of the world have become the Lords, which means the Lord has returned. 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[luigi]

15 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit - is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. 

It is a fact: God showed John the events of the end times in the very order in which they will take place. There is no need to try and rearrange anything.

Leave chapter 12 where it is: a MIDPOINT chapter. This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon (the devil) and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. However, Jesus CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill him as a young boy, using King Herod. Those first 5 verses are a parenthesis and were a history lesson for John: about Christ's birth. His entire life on earth written in one verse here!

Your theory in which you claim some of the details in Revelation 12 are about a historical event prior to when the book of Revelation was written, denies the Lords Word that the events to be shown John in chapters 4 through 22 constitute the hereafter. 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[iamlamad]

44 minutes ago, luigi said:

You agree that the great earthquake in Revelation 16:18 is the same great earthquake in Revelation 11:19, and yet you claim that Jesus does not return at this time as many suppose. However, when the great earthquake in Revelation 11:19 & 16:18 occurs is when the kingdoms of the world have become the Lords, which means the Lord has returned. 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You are mistaken. Have you ever been to a "closing" where property changes hands LEGALLY? Ownership changes at a closing, but no one takes physical possession at that time: the new owner only gets the keys. At the midpoint of the week, Jesus gets His planet back. We could say He gets the keys. But He does not take physical possession until Rev. 19 after the week has finished. 

Again you are taking something INSIDE a parenthesis and insisting it is IN John's Chronology. WRONG. Inside a parenthesis could be a DIFFERENT chronology.  I keep reminding you, the two witnesses will be killed near the end of the week, not near the midpoint as it might appear. 

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, luigi said:

Your theory in which you claim some of the details in Revelation 12 are about a historical event prior to when the book of Revelation was written, denies the Lords Word that the events to be shown John in chapters 4 through 22 constitute the hereafter. 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

You you mentally ADDING the word "Only" as in "Only things which must be hereafter." Sorry, but John did not include "only." If John had written THREE events that were future, and finished the book with recipes on manna, He would not have gone against this verse. The truth is, God DID show John many events that were hereafter. 

[luigi]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken. Have you ever been to a "closing" where property changes hands LEGALLY? Ownership changes at a closing, but no one takes physical possession at that time: the new owner only gets the keys. At the midpoint of the week, Jesus gets His planet back. We could say He gets the keys. But He does not take physical possession until Rev. 19 after the week has finished. 

Again you are taking something INSIDE a parenthesis and insisting it is IN John's Chronology. WRONG. Inside a parenthesis could be a DIFFERENT chronology.  I keep reminding you, the two witnesses will be killed near the end of the week, not near the midpoint as it might appear. 

I will continue to take the Word which states the kingdoms of the World becoming those of the Lord at the seventh angels sounding to mean exactly what it says, which means the beast is no longer in control, and his 42 months reigning over the worlds kingdoms has come to a close. I'm wondering, do you keep twisting the Word because you cannot see basic logic, or is it due to pride, and you cannot admit error?

[luigi]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You you mentally ADDING the word "Only" as in "Only things which must be hereafter." Sorry, but John did not include "only." If John had written THREE events that were future, and finished the book with recipes on manna, He would not have gone against this verse. The truth is, God DID show John many events that were hereafter. 

Revelation means to reveal. If the Lord in Revelation 12 were informing John that the devil tried to kill him as a baby (which was already well documented in both the OT and NT), there would be no revelation in that news.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

I will continue to take the Word which states the kingdoms of the World becoming those of the Lord at the seventh angels sounding to mean exactly what it says, which means the beast is no longer in control, and his 42 months reigning over the worlds kingdoms has come to a close. I'm wondering, do you keep twisting the Word because you cannot see basic logic, or is it due to pride, and you cannot admit error?

No, it does not mean that at all! Have you not read where Jesus called Satan "the prince" of this world, and Paul called him the god of this world? It is part of the mystery written in Rev. 10. God gave Adam total dominion and authority over this planet, but Satan usurped it - took it away from Adam and became the god of this world. AT the 7th trumpet, Adam's 6000 year lease will END. Suddenly Satan will have no more legal hold to earth. So it is a legal closing: earth changes hands: it is taken from Satan and given back to its rightful owner: Jesus Christ. The "Beast" has nothing to do with this exchange. 

BUT: once Jesus is the legal owner, HE, JESUS, will delegate 42 months of total authority over to Satan and the Beast. So, YES, it means exactly what it says, OWNERSHIP changes. And then Satan is kicked down from the atmosphere and above. We might say, Satan loses his wings. He is very angry at that point and will take it out on the remnant of believers left on earth.

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, luigi said:

Revelation means to reveal. If the Lord in Revelation 12 were informing John that the devil tried to kill him as a baby (which was already well documented in both the OT and NT), there would be no revelation in that news.

John was the youngest of the disciples and was, in fact, younger than Jesus. At that time, NOTHING was written in the NT. One of Paul's letters is probably the first part of the NT written. And we just don't know how much of what happened Jesus told the disciples. But by this time, John was old, and Jesus had been ascended for years. It was also written for all the reader's benefit over the centuries. 

I will tell you exactly what Jesus spoke to me:

In trying to answer His questions on chapters 4 & 5, Jesus spoke and said “Go study chapter 12.” (It sounded like an audible voice)

 

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon!

Now you can test this by the written word of God and see if you can believe it. I know, some people imagine those first five verses are about the church. They just don't fit the church. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by iamlamad

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, it does not mean that at all! Have you not read where Jesus called Satan "the prince" of this world, and Paul called him the god of this world? It is part of the mystery written in Rev. 10. God gave Adam total dominion and authority over this planet, but Satan usurped it - took it away from Adam and became the god of this world. AT the 7th trumpet, Adam's 6000 year lease will END. Suddenly Satan will have no more legal hold to earth. So it is a legal closing: earth changes hands: it is taken from Satan and given back to its rightful owner: Jesus Christ. The "Beast" has nothing to do with this exchange. 

BUT: once Jesus is the legal owner, HE, JESUS, will delegate 42 months of total authority over to Satan and the Beast. So, YES, it means exactly what it says, OWNERSHIP changes. And then Satan is kicked down from the atmosphere and above. We might say, Satan loses his wings. He is very angry at that point and will take it out on the remnant of believers left on earth.

Where is there any common sense reasoning in your claim, that once the Lord commences to reign and all the world's kingdoms become his, (which means he rules), that he then turns over the reigns of his power once again to the devil, the beast, and the beast's mouth?