The commonwealth of Israel

[Moby]

15 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Moby.

Of course! Avraham and Yitschaq knew that their own family's women would be better than marrying into the daughters of the Canaanites. That's still part of Avraham's family, not His origins!

Really? We just touched on the verse that says otherwise!

Genesis 35:9-12 (KJV)

9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him. 10 And God said unto him,

"Thy name is 'Jacob': thy name shall not be called any more 'Jacob,' but 'Israel' shall be thy name":

and he called his name "Israel." 11 And God said unto him,

"I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; 12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."

Not really, but whatever.

Don't you think that He really quoted this verse to show the religious leaders that it wasn't such a bad thing for Him to claim that He was the "Son of God?" After all, that's what He said!

Sure it does:

Ephesians 1:2-14 (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ (through Yeshua` the Messiah) to himself (into God the Father), according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved (Yeshua` the Messiah). 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now, add to this the verse you just quoted, and ... VOILA!

Oh, yes. And, the ONE olive tree is NOT called "all Israel"; it's just called "Israel!" Paul never intended his words to be taken as a hyphenated label for something other than Israel!

The more I read of your posts the more I realize you have no clue what this passage means:

2 Corinthians 3:3-6  being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh.  (4)  And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:  (5)  not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;  (6)  who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

This company of nations was a prophesy of the many believing Gentiles from all nations of the world who would become one holy nation with the believing Jews purchased unto God with the blood of Jesus from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation to become ONE "company" of people:

Genesis 35:10-11 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. (11) And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

The reason Jesus quoted Psalm 82 was because the Pharisees had such a twisted view of scripture they had no idea they were gods:

Psalms 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

As sons of God we have the promise of dominion over our flesh to put it to death:

Romans 8:12-14  So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:  (13)  for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  (14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Israel's hands were guided by the Holy Spirit to bless Ephraim above Manasseh. Manasseh represents the physical nation of Israel whereas Ephraim represents a multitude of Gentile nations: 

Genesis 48:14-20  And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born. (15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day, (16) the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (17) And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head. (18) And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head. (19) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He(Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother(Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (20)  And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Joseph being sold into Egypt by his physical brethren represents what Jesus, born of the tribe of Judah, experienced at the hand of His Jewish brethren.  Though both Judah and Joseph came through Israel, Jesus became the spiritual seed that bears spiritual children while the birthright passed through Joseph's two sons being Manasseh as type of the believing Jews and Ephraim as a type of the believing Gentiles from many nations:

1 Chronicles 5:1-2 And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's couch, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. (2) For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the prince(Jesus); but the birthright was Joseph's),

Jesus made this analogy abundantly clear when He said "there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last":

Luke 13:28-30 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. (29) And they(believing Gentiles) shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (30) And behold, there are last(believing Gentiles) who shall be first, and there are first(believing Jews) who shall be last.

First born Manasseh represents the lost sheep of physical Israel who Jesus said must first be invited into the kingdom:

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: (6) but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But the majority of the citizens of His physical country hated Him and refused the invitation of their King:

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, We will not that this man reign over us.

So Ephraim representing a much greater company of Gentile nations are now coming in first and then a remnant of Jews will be unhardened to the gospel as the Lord finishes the executing of His Word upon the earth:

Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: (28) for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

More truth here on who Israel is:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

[WilliamL]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:01 PM, Moby said:

Sorry bro but Romans chapter 11 explicitly states that the natural branches of that ONE olive tree are the Israelites and thus physical Jews! I will add some description to the many pronouns Paul used to help explain what Paul was clearly saying::

No where does Romans 11 "explicitly state that the natural branches of that ONE olive tree are the Israelites."

If it did, then you would not have needed to "add some description...to help explain" your argument. It would have been "explicitly" there in the text.

All you have done is add your own conclusions into the Word. Eisegesis.

[Moby]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

No where does Romans 11 "explicitly state that the natural branches of that ONE olive tree are the Israelites."

If it did, then you would not have needed to "add some description...to help explain" your argument. It would have been "explicitly" there in the text.

All you have done is add your own conclusions into the Word. Eisegesis.

Anyone who has the New Testament even once knows that Jesus was a Jew sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

Matthew 10:6  but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24  But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul went to the Jews first but they rejected the truth so he went to the Gentiles:

Acts 13:45-46  But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.  (46)  And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

So if the Jews were the lost sheep of the house of Israel it should be abundantly clear they were the natural branch that were the first to make up the ONE olive tree! The only reason why I added the words in parenthesis was to make it easier to follow. Please by all means show me with scripture where I added error!:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people(Jews) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men(Jews), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(of Jews) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he(Israel) obtained not; but the election(a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest(the majority of the Jews)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them(the majority of the Jews):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their(the majority of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their(the majority of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I(Paul) am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them(a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren(believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel(the majority of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles(all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(all the believing Jews and believing Gentiles elected by grace from the foundation of the world) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness(all the unbelieving Jews cut off their olive tree) from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them(Jews), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they(unbelieving Jews) are enemies for your(believing Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they(believing Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye(believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their(unbelieving Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these(unbelieving Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you(believing Gentiles) they(believing Jews) also may now obtain mercy. 

[Retrobyter]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:42 PM, Moby said:

Anyone who has the New Testament even once knows that Jesus was a Jew sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

Matthew 10:6  but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24  But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Paul went to the Jews first but they rejected the truth so he went to the Gentiles:

Acts 13:45-46  But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.  (46)  And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

So if the Jews were the lost sheep of the house of Israel it should be abundantly clear they were the natural branch that were the first to make up the ONE olive tree! The only reason why I added the words in parenthesis was to make it easier to follow. Please by all means show me with scripture where I added error!:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people(Jews) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men(Jews), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(of Jews) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he(Israel) obtained not; but the election(a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest(the majority of the Jews)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them(the majority of the Jews):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their(the majority of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their(the majority of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I(Paul) am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them(a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren(believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel(the majority of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles(all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(all the believing Jews and believing Gentiles elected by grace from the foundation of the world) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness(all the unbelieving Jews cut off their olive tree) from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them(Jews), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they(unbelieving Jews) are enemies for your(believing Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they(believing Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye(believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their(unbelieving Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these(unbelieving Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you(believing Gentiles) they(believing Jews) also may now obtain mercy. 

Shabbat shalom, Moby.

Good! Thank you! This should be a lot of fun....

I'm going to copy what you wrote within Romans 11 and change what I find in error. You wrote in red and black; I'll write in blue:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I (Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people (children of Israel) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel (the northern 10 tribes):  (3) "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men (children of Israel), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is a remnant (of children of Israel) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he (Israel) obtained not; but the election (a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest (the majority of the children of Israel)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them (the majority of the children of Israel):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I (Paul) am an apostle of the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them (a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit (the Jew Jesus, a child of Israel) is holy, so is the lump (Israel): and if the root (the Jew Jesus, a child of Israel) is holy, so are the branches (individual children of Israel).  (17)  But if some of the branches (unbelieving children of Israel) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive (a believing Gentile), wast grafted in among them (believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them (believing Jews) of the root (Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree (Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches (believing Jews): but if thou (a believing Gentile) gloriest, it is not thou (a believing Gentile) that bearest the root (the Jew Jesus), but the root (the Jew Yeshua`) thee (a believing Gentile).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches (unbelieving children of Israel) were broken off, that I (a believing Gentile) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their (unbelieving children of Israel) unbelief they were broken off, and thou (a believing Gentile) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(unbelieving children of Israel), neither will he spare thee (a believing Gentile).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them (unbelieving children of Israel) that fell, severity; but toward thee (a believing Gentile), God's goodness, if thou (a believing Gentile) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (a believing Gentile that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they (unbelieving children of Israel) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them (unbelieving children of Israel) in again (becoming believing children of Israel).  (24)  For if thou (a believing Gentile) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree (all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (Israel); how much more shall these (children of Israel), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree (Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren (believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles (all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so (by Gentiles coming into their fullness) all Israel (all the children of Israel brought to a believing state) shall be saved (rescued): even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (all the unbelieving children of Israel once cut off their olive tree):  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them (the children of Israel), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they (unbelieving children of Israel, in particular, the Jews) are enemies for your (believing Jews and Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they (all the children of Israel brought to a believing state) are beloved for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of (God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling).  (30)  For as ye (believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you (believing Gentiles) they (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) also may now obtain mercy (becoming believing children of Israel).

Remember, too, that the "thee's" and "thou's" and "thy's" and "thine's" in the KJV refer to SINGULAR "you" while the "ye's" and "you's" and "your's" and "yours's" in the KJV refer to PLURAL "you," we in the South would say, "y'all."

Case: Singular, Plural
Subjective: thou, ye = Examples:"thou shalt not kill," (Matt. 5:21) "ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:16)
Objective: thee, you = Examples: "Yea, Lord, thou knows that I love thee," (John 21:15-17) "Ask, and it shall be given you" (Luke 11:9)
Possessive Adjective: thy, your = Examples: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet," (Psalm 119:105) "your fathers did eat manna" (John 6:49)
Possessive Predicate Nominative: thine, yours = Examples: "all that I have is thine," (Luke 15:31) "Blessed be ye poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" (Luke 6:20)

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add spaces

[Moby]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Moby.

Good! Thank you! This should be a lot of fun....

I'm going to copy what you wrote within Romans 11 and change what I find in error. You wrote in red and black; I'll write in blue:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I (Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people (children of Israel) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel (the northern 10 tribes):  (3) "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men (children of Israel), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is a remnant (of children of Israel) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he (Israel) obtained not; but the election (a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest (the majority of the children of Israel)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them (the majority of the children of Israel):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I (Paul) am an apostle of the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them (a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit (the Jew Jesus, a child of Israel) is holy, so is the lump (Israel): and if the root (the Jew Jesus, a child of Israel) is holy, so are the branches (individual children of Israel).  (17)  But if some of the branches (unbelieving children of Israel) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive (a believing Gentile), wast grafted in among them (believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them (believing Jews) of the root (Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree (Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches (believing Jews): but if thou (a believing Gentile) gloriest, it is not thou (a believing Gentile) that bearest the root (the Jew Jesus), but the root (the Jew Yeshua`) thee (a believing Gentile).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches (unbelieving children of Israel) were broken off, that I (a believing Gentile) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their (unbelieving children of Israel) unbelief they were broken off, and thou (a believing Gentile) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(unbelieving children of Israel), neither will he spare thee (a believing Gentile).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them (unbelieving children of Israel) that fell, severity; but toward thee (a believing Gentile), God's goodness, if thou (a believing Gentile) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (a believing Gentile that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they (unbelieving children of Israel) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them (unbelieving children of Israel) in again (becoming believing children of Israel).  (24)  For if thou (a believing Gentile) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree (all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (Israel); how much more shall these (children of Israel), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree (Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren (believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel (the majority of the children of Israel, including most of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles (all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so (by Gentiles coming into their fullness) all Israel (all the children of Israel brought to a believing state) shall be saved (rescued): even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (all the unbelieving children of Israel once cut off their olive tree):  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them (the children of Israel), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they (unbelieving children of Israel, in particular, the Jews) are enemies for your (believing Jews and Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they (all the children of Israel brought to a believing state) are beloved for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of (God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling).  (30)  For as ye (believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you (believing Gentiles) they (unbelieving children of Israel, including most of the Jews) also may now obtain mercy (becoming believing children of Israel).

Remember, too, that the "thee's" and "thou's" and "thy's" and "thine's" in the KJV refer to SINGULAR "you" while the "ye's" and "you's" and "your's" and "yours's" in the KJV refer to PLURAL "you," we in the South would say, "y'all."

Case: Singular, Plural
Subjective: thou, ye = Examples:"thou shalt not kill," (Matt. 5:21) "ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:16)
Objective: thee, you = Examples: "Yea, Lord, thou knows that I love thee," (John 21:15-17) "Ask, and it shall be given you" (Luke 11:9)
Possessive Adjective: thy, your = Examples: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet," (Psalm 119:105) "your fathers did eat manna" (John 6:49)
Possessive Predicate Nominative: thine, yours = Examples: "all that I have is thine," (Luke 15:31) "Blessed be ye poor, for yours is the kingdom of God" (Luke 6:20)

 

Sorry bro but from the carrying away to Babylon through the time of Jesus and Paul's ministry there was no distinction between the northern ten tribes and Judah. When Paul used the term "Israel", "Israelites"  or "Jews" he was speaking of all the physical children of Jacob. The Holy Spirit through Paul made it very clear two chapters earlier that "they are not all Israel, that are of Israel" that the purpose of God according to election might stand:

Romans 9:1-16  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,  (2)  that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart.  (3)  For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:  (4)  who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;  (5)  whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.  (6)  But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they(believing Gentiles) are not all Israel(of Jacob), that are of Israel(believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree Paul will define more in chapter 11):  (7)  neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  (8)  That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.  (9)  For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.  (10)  And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--  (11)  for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,  (12)  it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.  (13)  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.  (14)  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  (15)  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.  (16)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 

The Holy Spirit, through both Hosea and Paul, is clearly defining Israel as a people made up of both a remnant of believing Jews with believing Gentiles as one people called "Israel" by the time our Lord finishes His ONE olive tree:

Romans 9:17-33  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.  (18)  So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.  (19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?  (20)  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?  (21)  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?  (22)  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:  (23)  and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,  (24)  even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?  (25)  As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people(believing Gentiles); And her beloved, that was not beloved.  (26)  And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people(Gentiles), There shall they be called sons of the living God.  (27)  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.  (29)  And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed(remnant), We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.  (30)  What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith:  (31)  but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.  (32)  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;  (33)  even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Hosea, Isaiah, Jesus, and Paul are referring to the very same elect remnant that will be saved by the end of the tribulation as ONE olive tree:

Isaiah 10:20-23  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean upon him that smote them, but shall lean upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.  (21)  A remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.  (22)  For though thy people, Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them shall return: a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.  (23)  For a full end, and that determined, will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, make in the midst of all the earth.

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Matthew 24:22  And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

If the Holy Spirit is saying that be the time of the end only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved and through Paul and Hosea say "my people" are made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles then "all Israel" is both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree called "all Israel" and the commonwealth of Israel:

Ephesians 2:11-22  Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;  (12)  that ye(Gentiles) were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he(Jesus) is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,  (15)  having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he(Jesus) might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;  (16)  and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  and he came and preached peace to you(Gentile) that were far off, and peace to them(Jews) that were nigh:  (18)  for through him we(believing Jews and Gentiles) both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.  (19)  So then ye(believing Gentiles) are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,  (20)  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;  (21)  in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;  (22)  in whom ye(believing Gentile) also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Moby said:

Sorry bro but from the carrying away to Babylon through the time of Jesus and Paul's ministry there was no distinction between the northern ten tribes and Judah. When Paul used the term "Israel", "Israelites"  or "Jews" he was speaking of all the physical children of Jacob. The Holy Spirit through Paul made it very clear two chapters earlier that "they are not all Israel, that are of Israel" that the purpose of God according to election might stand:

Shabbat shalom, Moby.

Sorry back at ya', bro, but the term "Jew" is an Anglicized name that is a transliteration of "Yhudiy," meaning "of or belonging to Yhudah," and it refers SOLELY to the children of Yhudah, not the entire children of Israel. It may, through the division of kingdoms after Shlomoh's ("Solomon's") reign, also include the children of Bin-yamiyn ("Benjamin"), but the larger tribe of the Southern Kingdom was Yhudah, just as the largest tribe of the Northern Kingdom, Efrayim ("Ephraim"), gave the name for the 10 tribes to the north of the Land of Israel.

Reuben, Gad, and 1/2 the tribe of Manasseh were already taken captive before Ephraim was taken captive, which in turn was taken captive before Yhudah was taken captive. Only those of Yhudah, the Southern Kingdom of 2 tribes (plus the Levites among them) were the ONLY ones to return to the Land!

Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" ("Paul") would know this, particularly since He was a Paaruwsh ("a Pharisee"). YOU, on the other hand, must learn that there is indeed a difference between a Jew and a child of Israel!

10 hours ago, Moby said:

Romans 9:1-16  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,  (2)  that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart.  (3)  For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:  (4)  who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;  (5)  whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.  (6)  But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they(believing Gentiles) are not all Israel(of Jacob), that are of Israel(believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree Paul will define more in chapter 11):  (7)  neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  (8)  That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.  (9)  For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.  (10)  And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--  (11)  for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,  (12)  it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.  (13)  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.  (14)  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  (15)  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.  (16)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 

And, what you've added here shows PROOF that you don't know the difference! See, verses 3 and 4 show that what you've added in verse 6 is NOT CORRECT! There are THREE groups of people to whom Paul refers: the Jews, the children of Israel, and those adopted into Israel from the Goyim ("the Gentile nations").

Verse 8 refers to Avraham's ATTEMPT to supply his own "seed" through his relations with Sarah's handmaid, Hagar, who gave birth to Ishmael! HE is the father of "the children of the flesh." It was GOD'S plan from the start that Sarah herself would give the impossible "seed," Yitschaq ("Isaac") as the father of "the children of the promise." This is VERY IMPORTANT to understand before trying to reason from Romans 9:1-16!

10 hours ago, Moby said:

The Holy Spirit, through both Hosea and Paul, is clearly defining Israel as a people made up of both a remnant of believing Jews with believing Gentiles as one people called "Israel" by the time our Lord finishes His ONE olive tree:

Romans 9:17-33  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.  (18)  So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.  (19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?  (20)  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?  (21)  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?  (22)  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:  (23)  and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,  (24)  even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?  (25)  As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people(believing Gentiles); And her beloved, that was not beloved.  (26)  And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people(Gentiles), There shall they be called sons of the living God.  (27)  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.  (29)  And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed(remnant), We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.  (30)  What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith:  (31)  but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.  (32)  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;  (33)  even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Hosea, Isaiah, Jesus, and Paul are referring to the very same elect remnant that will be saved by the end of the tribulation as ONE olive tree:

Isaiah 10:20-23  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean upon him that smote them, but shall lean upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.  (21)  A remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.  (22)  For though thy people, Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them shall return: a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.  (23)  For a full end, and that determined, will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, make in the midst of all the earth.

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Matthew 24:22  And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

If the Holy Spirit is saying that be the time of the end only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved and through Paul and Hosea say "my people" are made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles then "all Israel" is both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree called "all Israel" and the commonwealth of Israel:

Ephesians 2:11-22  Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;  (12)  that ye(Gentiles) were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he(Jesus) is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,  (15)  having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he(Jesus) might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;  (16)  and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  and he came and preached peace to you(Gentile) that were far off, and peace to them(Jews) that were nigh:  (18)  for through him we(believing Jews and Gentiles) both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.  (19)  So then ye(believing Gentiles) are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,  (20)  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;  (21)  in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;  (22)  in whom ye(believing Gentile) also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

I'm going to spare you an analysis from the rest of what you quoted and "explained," knowing that the FIRST problem must be fixed first!

[Moby]

47 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Moby.

Sorry back at ya', bro, but the term "Jew" is an Anglicized name that is a transliteration of "Yhudiy," meaning "of or belonging to Yhudah," and it refers SOLELY to the children of Yhudah, not the entire children of Israel. It may, through the division of kingdoms after Shlomoh's ("Solomon's") reign, also include the children of Bin-yamiyn ("Benjamin"), but the larger tribe of the Southern Kingdom was Yhudah, just as the largest tribe of the Northern Kingdom, Efrayim ("Ephraim"), gave the name for the 10 tribes to the north of the Land of Israel.

Reuben, Gad, and 1/2 the tribe of Manasseh were already taken captive before Ephraim was taken captive, which in turn was taken captive before Yhudah was taken captive. Only those of Yhudah, the Southern Kingdom of 2 tribes (plus the Levites among them) were the ONLY ones to return to the Land!

Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" ("Paul") would know this, particularly since He was a Paaruwsh ("a Pharisee"). YOU, on the other hand, must learn that there is indeed a difference between a Jew and a child of Israel!

And, what you've added here shows PROOF that you don't know the difference! See, verses 3 and 4 show that what you've added in verse 6 is NOT CORRECT! There are THREE groups of people to whom Paul refers: the Jews, the children of Israel, and those adopted into Israel from the Goyim ("the Gentile nations").

Verse 8 refers to Avraham's ATTEMPT to supply his own "seed" through his relations with Sarah's handmaid, Hagar, who gave birth to Ishmael! HE is the father of "the children of the flesh." It was GOD'S plan from the start that Sarah herself would give the impossible "seed," Yitschaq ("Isaac") as the father of "the children of the promise." This is VERY IMPORTANT to understand before trying to reason from Romans 9:1-16!

I'm going to spare you an analysis from the rest of what you quoted and "explained," knowing that the FIRST problem must be fixed first!

I wasn't trying to stress where the word "Jew" first developed from before the carrying away to Babylon. After the whole nation of Israel was finally swallowed up by Babylon the term Jew became universally used for all the tribes of Israel. This became very obvious by the time Easter was written:

Esther 3:6  But he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had made known to him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.

Even the Gentiles of the land became Jews in the book of Easter proving it was not a term associated only with the tribe of Judah: 

Esther 8:17  And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had gladness and joy, a feast and a good day. And many from among the peoples of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews was fallen upon them.

It was such a common term for the whole nation of Israel that the wise men referred to Jesus as the king of the Jews:

Matthew 2:2  Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

The feasts were to be performed by the entire nation of Israel and John recognized the feasts of the Jews again proving the term became universal:

John 5:1  After these things there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

[Retrobyter]

28 minutes ago, Moby said:

I wasn't trying to stress where the word "Jew" first developed from before the carrying away to Babylon. After the whole nation of Israel was finally swallowed up by Babylon the term Jew became universally used for all the tribes of Israel. This became very obvious by the time Easter was written:

Esther 3:6  But he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had made known to him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.

Shalom, Moby.

But, don't you see? Only the JEWS (children of Yhudah, children of Bin-yamiyn, and some of the Levi'iym) were living in Babylon who were taken/freed by the Persians. The children of Israel from the 10 other tribes (and the rest of the Levi'iym) were taken captive in Assyria, north of the province of Bavel or Babylon, in what was called Madai, the country of the Medes, YEARS before .

28 minutes ago, Moby said:

Even the Gentiles of the land became Jews in the book of Easter proving it was not a term associated only with the tribe of Judah: 

Esther 8:17  And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had gladness and joy, a feast and a good day. And many from among the peoples of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews was fallen upon them.

It was such a common term for the whole nation of Israel that the wise men referred to Jesus as the king of the Jews:

Matthew 2:2  Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

The feasts were to be performed by the entire nation of Israel and John recognized the feasts of the Jews again proving the term became universal:

John 5:1  After these things there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

Nope. None of this makes any difference at all! The "Jews" did NOT include the tribes of Israel who were still lost in time! Yeshua` being the King of the Jews was the first step to Him becoming the King of the nation Israel.

[Moby]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Moby.

But, don't you see? Only the JEWS (children of Yhudah, children of Bin-yamiyn, and some of the Levi'iym) were living in Babylon who were taken/freed by the Persians. The children of Israel from the 10 other tribes (and the rest of the Levi'iym) were taken captive in Assyria, north of the province of Bavel or Babylon, in what was called Madai, the country of the Medes, YEARS before .

Nope. None of this makes any difference at all! The "Jews" did NOT include the tribes of Israel who were still lost in time! Yeshua` being the King of the Jews was the first step to Him becoming the King of the nation Israel.

The northern ten tribes were swallowed up by Assyria. The Assyrian records show only a little over 27,000 Hebrews were taken into that captivity but most of the northern Jews were left in their land. The theology of “ten lost tribes” is false. Then Assyria was swallowed up by Babylon. In a series of three invasions, the Babylonians came against the whole land of Israel and finally the stronghold of Jerusalem. Nearly 70,000 Jews were taken to Babylon during these campaigns which included some of the northern kingdom who had remained in Canaan as well as some from Jerusalem. Then Medo~Persia swallowed up Babylon. Cyrus was moved by God to send the Jews who wanted to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple:

Ezra 1:1-3  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,  (2)  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, the God of heaven, given me; and he hath charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.  (3)  Whosoever there is among you of all his people, his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of Jehovah, the God of Israel (he is God), which is in Jerusalem.

This clearly included souls from all twelve tribes as Ezra records:

Ezra 6:17  And they offered at the dedication of this house of God a hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin-offering for all Israel, twelve he-goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Ezekiel prophesies the tribes of Israel which includes Gentile strangers who are grafted in among them as ONE olive tree:

Ezekiel 47:21-23  So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.  (22)  And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you and to the strangers that sojourn among you, who shall beget children among you; and they shall be unto you as the home-born among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.  (23)  And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord Jehovah.

The northern tribe of Asher was recognized in the days of the birth of Christ:

Luke 2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity,

Even in the days of James there was still twelve distinct tribes noted:

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

So now that the scriptures have clearly proven the term "Jews" refers to all twelve tribes of Israel, my earlier post stands correct:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people(Jews) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men(Jews), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(of Jews) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he(Israel) obtained not; but the election(a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest(the majority of the Jews)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them(the majority of the Jews):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their(the majority of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their(the majority of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I(Paul) am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them(a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren(believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel(the majority of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles(all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(all the believing Jews and believing Gentiles elected by grace from the foundation of the world) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness(all the unbelieving Jews cut off their olive tree) from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them(Jews), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they(unbelieving Jews) are enemies for your(believing Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they(believing Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye(believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their(unbelieving Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these(unbelieving Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you(believing Gentiles) they(believing Jews) also may now obtain mercy. 

Those desiring more scriptural understanding on who "all Israel" is please see this link:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

Edited September 20, 2020 by Moby

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I think I agree with you both to some degree.  The northern 10 tribes of Israel were never called "Jews" only the kingdom of Judah which only included the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin and some of members from the tribe of Levi.  Being an Israelite was more then just being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  It was more about keeping the covenant.  If you were a descendant but failed to keep the covenant you were cut off from Israel and not considered a Israelite.  On the flip side if you were not a natural born Israelite (Gentile) but joined yourself to Israel and kept the covenants you were also treated and considered a covenant Israelite just like a natural born Israelite.  So when scriptures say not all Israel are Israel is true, being a descendant does not make you a true Israelite.  When Yahshua established the new covenant and was rejected by a Jew they were cut-off from Israel and by the same token Gentiles who enter into the new covenant and keep it they are grafted into Israel's covenant and promises.  God promises in the last days that God is going to regather and rejoin both houses (House of Judah and House of Israel).   This event will be greater than the first exodus according to scriptures.  I believe Gentiles that are being saved are the lost sheep of Israel that had been scattered and mixed into all the nations.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh