The Elephant in the New Testament

[Paul James]

I like this as an objective survey of the relevant Scriptures concerning the spiritual gifts, without forcing it toward Cessationism or Continuance.

[SwordMaster]

On 9/15/2020 at 10:33 AM, Episcopius said:

This will be a thread to look at the DIVERSE KINDS OF TONGUES recorded in the New Testament,

Please - please - please do not not let this thread be about Cessationism (Cessionism) vs Continuationism.

That is not what this OP and thread is about.

I realize that some people think diverse kinds of tongues means ONLY different human languages, well, we will look at tongues in the New Testament.

So much emphasis is put on Day of Pentecost - Acts 2.

I feel there is so much to look at on that day that its practically inexhaustible.

First there is a pre-Pentecost, or Proto-Pentecost passage, when Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and SAID "receive the Holy Spirit";

all but Thomas were present when He said "receive ye the Holy Ghost"

The Bible does not say they DID receive Him then, it does not say they did NOT receive Holy Ghost then, does not say they spoke in tongues at that time, does not say they didn't.

John 20:22

Now we are ready to look at Day of Pentecost.

 

 

The only way to understand this topic fluently, is to understand that there are two kinds of Biblical tongues in the NT Scriptures. In John 20:22 when Jesus said to the disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit," they DID receive Him right then and there...that was the INDWELLING SPIRIT that they received, NOT the baptism in the Spirit. At that moment, the disciples were regenerated and saved.

They did not receive the baptism in the Spirit until the day of Pentecost. 

The two types of tongues found in Scripture are: the Gift of Tongues which is completely worked through people by the Spirit, as are all of the other spiritual gifts listed in I Cor. 12...and the other tongues is the saved person's spiritual prayer language. 

The Gift of Tongues is ONLY worked in the congregation by the Spirit - in other words, it is the Spirit who is speaking the tongue through the person as well as the interpretation, whether through that person or someone else. If the Holy Spirit is not the one speaking, then there will be no interpretation (unless something hinkie is going on). 

A saved person utilizing their prayer language (tongues) will not give any interpretation, because...as Paul says, he is speaking to God, not to others. That is the basic difference in tongues taught in Scripture. But if you are referring to different kinds of languages that people can speak in, I have heard as different kinds as many as are actual languages upon the earth. And Paul says that some people don't speak earthly tongues only, but some pray in languages that are not found upon the earth, he calls them "tongues...of angels" (I Cor. 13:1).

Hope that helps!

Blessings!

 

[Riverwalker]

On 9/15/2020 at 10:33 AM, Episcopius said:

 

The Bible does not say they DID receive Him then, it does not say they did NOT receive Holy Ghost then, does not say they spoke in tongues at that time, does not say they didn't.

And yet since the gospel was not ready to spread world wide while Jesus  there was no need for tongues. I do agree they were baptized and empowered by the Holy Spirit before then, as that was required

[Prycejosh1987]

In the bible it says the Holy Spirit was on Simeon, in gospel of Luke chp 2. vs 25-27

Why didnt the bible says The Holy Spirit was IN simeon, i do not know but it seems possible for the Holy Spirit to be on someone and leading them and guiding them, and then filled with Holy Spirit is not just a leading and guidance its becoming like Christ, its living a perfect life with less sin. 

When Jesus breathed on His disciples i believe it was being inspiration to accept His message and preparing them for divine revelation. It was putting the Holy Spirit on them. I do believe its possible to have the Holy Spirit on us, but not in us. The Holy is God after all, and personally motivates people to follow Jesus and do Gods will. 

[Joulre2abba]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:14 PM, Buddy D. Mouse said:

There is much confusion and chaos - Peter starts his sermon by first trying to convince the crowd that the disciples are not DRUNK - but rather that a prophecy of Joel has come to pass. IMO, at this point, Peter speaks in his native Aramaic and the HEARING ONLY MIRACLE occurs. How much HEBREW was known by everybody escapes me, probably not enough that Peter preached in Hebrew and listeners/visitors knew enough Hebrew to follow along. Possible, but not likely, imo I reject that - and say we have a hearing only miracle of the crowd understanding Peter.

One thing that you do have right is that while there was multiple kinds of speaking in tongues according to 120 individuals.. the visitors each heard in their own languages.

But other than that your speculative wording is evidence of how much you don't know on many levels. You are merely using your experience to try to figure out the events of what was recorded. And you even decide to reject something based on your own ideas of what it all means.

Peter spoke in the less educated man's common Galilean dialect. All who had come from other neighboring countries did so every year to celebrate Pentecost. It so happened that the Jewish moed was fulfilled on that day.

In that they all came every year that would have to mean that they were bi-lingual in order to communicate effectively. Because no one had available travel booklets that contained 25 most likely things they might want to say in the course of their visit.

The Aramaic language is kin to Hebrew which all from those other countries would know well how to speak because they're all Jews. They all read and heard preached in Hebrew and Aramaic the Torah and Tanahk. They didn't have copies written in their other nation language. Because the idioms and metaphors and other forms of wording used in Hebrew cannot be translated well into other languages.

For instance.. the Greek has only "Theos" for the Hebrew word "Elohim". The Greek cannot even properly do YHVH. The English can't either. For centuries the English has only used LORD. And God. What was it before the German gave us God?

Yes the German word for good is Goht. Sounds like God.

There is so much that can be lost in a translation.

When the speaking in tongues had occurred, the visitors only said that what they heard was concerning praise of the wonders of God. No evangelism.

Then Peter addressed them all concerning the explanation of why they were acting drunk. Then at the end he equivalently gave an alter call for those who would like to be saved.

All through his message he wasn't speaking in tongues. Because he didn't need to since they well understood Galilean. Also. Remember what Paul said in a teaching/preaching situation.. "I would would rather speak 5-10 words in understanding than 10,000 words in a tongue."

Tongues are not to be used to evangelize. When English speaking tongue-talking evangelists go to Spain or France, wherever, they take bi-lingual translators with them.

And like Peter did, they give a message of salvation and also offer the speaking in tongues.

[Joulre2abba]

On 11/11/2020 at 11:49 PM, SwordMaster said:

The Gift of Tongues is ONLY worked in the congregation by the Spirit - in other words, it is the Spirit who is speaking the tongue through the person as well as the interpretation, whether through that person or someone else. If the Holy Spirit is not the one speaking, then there will be no interpretation (unless something hinkie is going on). 

A saved person utilizing their prayer language (tongues) will not give any interpretation, because...as Paul says, he is speaking to God, not to others. That is the basic difference in tongues taught in Scripture. But if you are referring to different kinds of languages that people can speak in, I have heard as different kinds as many as are actual languages upon the earth. And Paul says that some people don't speak earthly tongues only, but some pray in languages that are not found upon the earth, he calls them "tongues...of angels" (I Cor. 13:1).

- "it is the Spirit who is speaking the tongue through the person as well as the interpretation"

A: Those words can give people the idea that they don't do the speaking but rather the Holy Spirit does.

To that idea is the reply. No. The Holy Spirit gives the utterance awareness to the person from within their inner man, and it is up to them to speak what they hear.

When I say that they speak what they hear, that does not mean that it's audible to the outer ear but it is to the inner ear.

When your inner ear hears it's very much like being aware of your own thoughts. That's why someone might say when they hear it "Was that you, Lord, or was that me?"

It takes getting familiar with what you hear to where you can clearly tell the difference between your thoughts and the Holy Spirit utterance or interpretation. In the same way that you can eventually tell the difference between two different friends or family members who call you over the phone.

- "If the Holy Spirit is not the one speaking, then there will be no interpretation (unless something hinkie is going on)."

A: The Holy Spirit uses your word knowledge and your level of spiritual understanding to speak to you. The more that you don't know, the less that you will hear from Him.

Most of the time it's those who don't know that usually want to speak an interpretation of a tongue, so it usually ends up being hinkie. That is just immaturity, not evil.

- "A saved person utilizing their prayer language (tongues) will not give any interpretation, because...as Paul says, he is speaking to God, not to others."

A: Paul said that those who speak in tongues when they're alone can use their faith to receive the interpretation to know.. if they want to.. what they said or get some gist of what it's about.

It works like the public version but it's on a private level. So there is no requirement that it must be interpreted, but, if the person who spoke in tongues wants to know what was said in tongues, then they can use their faith for it.

It's possible that such a private practice gets accurate to where the person is promoted by God to use the method on a public basis.

- "And Paul says that some people don't speak earthly tongues only, but some pray in languages that are not found upon the earth, he calls them "tongues...of angels"

A: All of the tongues that are mysteries.. are not earthly tongues.

The tongues of angels is used during intercessional prayer to speak their language to give them commands in assisting in the matter of what the intercession is about and who it's for.

The person using the tongues of angels will switch to a different sounding utterance that is markedly not like their usual tongues. And the person often doesn't know what they said, but the angel definitely does.

It's all on a secret mystery basis so that the devil doesn't know and therefore his sabotaging everything is reduced.

The person who intercedes should not share with anyone what they prayed about or who for.. unless or until they meet the person that they prayed for and hear their testimony.

The better that the person can keep such secrets the more they will be called upon by God to intercede.

So it's definitely worth not blabbing what you experienced during interceding.

[Joulre2abba]

On 3/1/2022 at 5:22 PM, Prycejosh1987 said:

In the bible it says the Holy Spirit was on Simeon, in gospel of Luke chp 2. vs 25-27

Why didnt the bible says The Holy Spirit was IN simeon, i do not know but it seems possible for the Holy Spirit to be on someone and leading them and guiding them, and then filled with Holy Spirit is not just a leading and guidance its becoming like Christ, its living a perfect life with less sin. 

When Jesus breathed on His disciples i believe it was being inspiration to accept His message and preparing them for divine revelation. It was putting the Holy Spirit on them. I do believe its possible to have the Holy Spirit on us, but not in us. The Holy is God after all, and personally motivates people to follow Jesus and do Gods will. 

- "In the bible it says the Holy Spirit was on Simeon, in gospel of Luke chp 2. vs 25-27. Why didnt the bible says The Holy Spirit was IN simeon?

A: The Holy Spirit could not be in someone until the Day of Pentecost when they were all filled, and they spoke with tongues as He gave them utterance.

- "I do believe its possible to have the Holy Spirit on us, but not in us."

A: There are many NT verses that say "In whom", "In Him", "In Christ".. they tell the believer what is for their benefit.

Throughout the OT no one could be saved but the Holy Spirit could through God's word that was meditated upon, influence the person's thinking and make a verse become real to them. God would speak personally to that person concerning the words in the sentence.

For instance, Simeon was one day as every day reading a bible chapter with purpose to understand it. Like God told Joshua to do.

It's known from Lk.2:26 that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

When I was doing my own Bible study I read that and asked God how he had revealed that to him. And the next day when I was reading Ps.91:16 I got my answer.

Ps.91:16 "With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation."

There are other ways in which that verse could be accurately applied, and that concerning Simeon is one of them.

- "and then filled with Holy Spirit is not just a leading and guidance its becoming like Christ, its living a perfect life with less sin."

A: You seem to vacillate between if it's possible for "in" or not.

- "I do believe its possible to have the Holy Spirit on us, but not in us."

Never the less, what you said concerning what "in" by filling, can produce, is essentially right, but still there is more to it than that to achieve consistent less sin.

 

[SwordMaster]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:41 AM, Joulre2abba said:

- "it is the Spirit who is speaking the tongue through the person as well as the interpretation"

A: Those words can give people the idea that they don't do the speaking but rather the Holy Spirit does.

To that idea is the reply. No. The Holy Spirit gives the utterance awareness to the person from within their inner man, and it is up to them to speak what they hear.

When I say that they speak what they hear, that does not mean that it's audible to the outer ear but it is to the inner ear.

When your inner ear hears it's very much like being aware of your own thoughts. That's why someone might say when they hear it "Was that you, Lord, or was that me?"

It takes getting familiar with what you hear to where you can clearly tell the difference between your thoughts and the Holy Spirit utterance or interpretation. In the same way that you can eventually tell the difference between two different friends or family members who call you over the phone.

 

Nope, what you are describing are those who like to pray out loud in tongues like Paul says NOT to do. They think the words and say them, that is different from the gift of tongues because it is solely the Spirit speaking. You are using physical arguments here from the flesh, not what Scripture gives to us.

 

Quote

 

- "If the Holy Spirit is not the one speaking, then there will be no interpretation (unless something hinkie is going on)."

A: The Holy Spirit uses your word knowledge and your level of spiritual understanding to speak to you. The more that you don't know, the less that you will hear from Him.

Most of the time it's those who don't know that usually want to speak an interpretation of a tongue, so it usually ends up being hinkie. That is just immaturity, not evil.

 

Wrong again, that is completely flesh and not spirit. It appears that you have never heard or witnessed the Spirit speaking through someone in tongues and interpretations...it appears that you have only witnessed people speaking in tongues and giving fake interpretations out of their own mind and flesh. The gift of tongues and interpretation is none of that...it is the Spirit speaking directly through that indiviadual(s).

Quote

 

- "A saved person utilizing their prayer language (tongues) will not give any interpretation, because...as Paul says, he is speaking to God, not to others."

A: Paul said that those who speak in tongues when they're alone can use their faith to receive the interpretation to know.. if they want to.. what they said or get some gist of what it's about.

It works like the public version but it's on a private level. So there is no requirement that it must be interpreted, but, if the person who spoke in tongues wants to know what was said in tongues, then they can use their faith for it.

It's possible that such a private practice gets accurate to where the person is promoted by God to use the method on a public basis.

 

Wrong again...just more flesh speaking here. Paul does not say that you can understand what you are saying in your prayer language; he says that you can have a "knowing" of who you are praying for, but not what you are praying for in the prayer language. That is what we usually call having a burden to pray, but we are not told what we are praying for...that's God's business.

Quote

 

- "And Paul says that some people don't speak earthly tongues only, but some pray in languages that are not found upon the earth, he calls them "tongues...of angels"

A: All of the tongues that are mysteries.. are not earthly tongues.

The tongues of angels is used during intercessional prayer to speak their language to give them commands in assisting in the matter of what the intercession is about and who it's for.

The person using the tongues of angels will switch to a different sounding utterance that is markedly not like their usual tongues. And the person often doesn't know what they said, but the angel definitely does.

It's all on a secret mystery basis so that the devil doesn't know and therefore his sabotaging everything is reduced.

The person who intercedes should not share with anyone what they prayed about or who for.. unless or until they meet the person that they prayed for and hear their testimony.

The better that the person can keep such secrets the more they will be called upon by God to intercede.

 

Again...wrong! Scripture tells us very plainly that some people's spiritual language is angelic, and some are earthly languages...and we have this evidence throughout the church where the Spirit is actually allowed to speak through us. Sadly, many so-called pentecostals have social clicks in their churches where if you do not speak in tongues, you are not a good christian.

It sounds like those kinds of churches are the only experience that you have, because most of what you have stated is not Scriptural, but wholly from the flesh.

Blessings.

 

 

 

[Joulre2abba]

2 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

Nope, what you are describing are those who like to pray out loud in tongues like Paul says NOT to do. They think the words and say them, that is different from the gift of tongues because it is solely the Spirit speaking. You are using physical arguments here from the flesh, not what Scripture gives to us.

What I was describing was how to tell the difference between your own thoughts and the direction of the Lord. I wasn't talking about speaking in tongues as such but how to co-operate with the Holy Spirit when speaking in tongues.

That does involve some human participation. It's best to learn during private prayer time, then the more you can discern, the more likely God will use you while in the congregation.

Paul didn't teach much on how to do that, he just wrote that the child of God should be led of the Spirit of God. There were some things that Jesus did that is not given in the OT as support.

2 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

 

Wrong again, that is completely flesh and not spirit. It appears that you have never heard or witnessed the Spirit speaking through someone in tongues and interpretations...it appears that you have only witnessed people speaking in tongues and giving fake interpretations out of their own mind and flesh. The gift of tongues and interpretation is none of that...it is the Spirit speaking directly through that indiviadual(s).

I answered in such a way that indicates that I'm speaking from observation as well as personal experience in how God leads me.

I wouldn't know about anyone giving fake interpretations. Anyone who is quick to judge them as fake is far less likely to be used of God to give a genuine interpretation.

What I shared in my previous post is how to co-operate with the Holy Spirit as he gives words of utterance. How to hear and recognize God's words and tell the difference between those and one's own thinking. And thereby be less likely to give an interpretation that is from one's own ideas and notions. 

That involves participation with God in yielding one's mind and whole body. So it's not correct to say that the natural person has nothing whatsoever to do with the process.

2 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

Wrong again...just more flesh speaking here. Paul does not say that you can understand what you are saying in your prayer language; he says that you can have a "knowing" of who you are praying for, but not what you are praying for in the prayer language. That is what we usually call having a burden to pray, but we are not told what we are praying for...that's God's business.

I was speaking of private prayer time where getting interpretation is allowed in knowing what you're praying about. That way you can pray in the spirit and in the understanding also. Getting promptings of scriptures to say, etc.

You have confused it with intercession which is usually done without knowing what or who you're praying for or about.

2 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

Again...wrong! Scripture tells us very plainly that some people's spiritual language is angelic, and some are earthly languages...and we have this evidence throughout the church where the Spirit is actually allowed to speak through us. Sadly, many so-called pentecostals have social clicks in their churches where if you do not speak in tongues, you are not a good christian.

It sounds like those kinds of churches are the only experience that you have, because most of what you have stated is not Scriptural, but wholly from the flesh.

I had spoken of some believer's using angelic languages while speaking in tongues.. You replied by stating the same thing but then said that I was wrong.

It seems there is much that you are confused about.

You assume that I've only attended pentecostal churches. However, I also have experience from attending a Methodist church where they neither taught nor spoke much about the Holy Spirit.

Prayer that asks for God's will provides what isn't taught in a church.

In the churches that I've attended, having scriptural support is very important. And it's personally important to me to know what God's will is so that the devil can't take it away.

Contrary to what you suppose I am not of the sort of personality to be all caught up in experiences. Although I've enjoyed those appropriate one's that I've had. Many have happened while in prayer, not expecting anything but willing to receive what comes.

2 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

Blessings.

 

 

 

 

[SwordMaster]

16 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

What I was describing was how to tell the difference between your own thoughts and the direction of the Lord. I wasn't talking about speaking in tongues as such but how to co-operate with the Holy Spirit when speaking in tongues.

 

 

The OP is about speaking in the gift of tongues, and that is what I addressed!