Daniel 2 and the dream of the great statue.

[JoeCanada]

On 9/19/2020 at 2:36 PM, BibleReader said:

What an interesting post!  Got me to think quite a bit.  What you mention about the Hebrew words Minnak and Ara is quite fascinating and I'd like to do more research on this.  Furthermore, what you mention about Daniel 2:40 is very true, and a while back, I also came to the conclusion that Rome likely is not the fourth kingdom in the vision because of what you mention. 

Now here's where I'm inclined to differ when it comes to our conclusions:  I believe the fourth kingdom of iron legs and iron and clay feet will arise in the future, in other words, it's not here yet.  Here's why I believe that and I'd appreciate constructive criticism here:

• The first three kingdoms played a huge role in affecting God's chosen people by making changes to the temple. 
  • The Babylonians destroyed Solomon's temple
  • The Persians authorized the construction of the temple
  • The Greeks (Antiochus IV), constructed a pagan altar atop the temple altar in Jerusalem and dedicated it to the Greek god Zeus.
• Daniel chapters 2, 11 and 12 seem to be intertwined (compare Daniel 2:44,45 with Daniel 11:45, 12:1).  Since Daniel 11:31 seems to indicate a temple structure (whether spiritual or physical I can't be sure at this time) that will be profaned (see Daniel 11:31) precisely 1,290 days prior to the "end" (See Daniel 12:8,11), this leads me to believe that the fourth kingdom may not be here yet.

Lastly, regarding the identities of each of the metallic parts of the image,  one hypothesis is the following and I'd like to know what you think (especially about # 3 in the list below):

1. Gold=Babylon
2. Silver=Persia
3. Copper=Greco-Roman empires (Greece and later Rome)
4. Iron legs with iron and clay feet=The King of the North (it will appear in the future or it's already in the making)

 

 

Hi BR,

I was reviewing this post and I realized that I failed to answer you. Sorry about that brother.

Rome is not the 4th beast for one very good reason. The "stone that crushes the statue and breaks it into pieces all at the same time".......well, how can that be Rome? Rome would have to be in control of the kingdoms or land mass that those kingdoms represent. 

Other reasons: Rome never controlled Babylon, but for a brief period ( about a year ). That hardly counts as making it part of the empire which was around for some 1400 years. And they never even entered Persia! Hardly a candidate for the 4th empire.

The 4th empire has to meet all the criteria laid out in scripture. And ONLY Islam does this. It crushed the cultures they invaded, they forced their monotheistic god on the conquered peoples. they instituted new architecture and the Arabic language, and above all this, they forced their Sharia law and calendars on their foes, thereby changing the laws and the seasons......Islam means submission.

Can we say this about Rome? NO! Rome adopted Greek culture.....they worshipped the gods of Greece (just changed their names)......they copied Greek architecture ......and Rome used Greek as the language of commerce and trade. How is that "crushing, breaking and shattering"??????

Now here's where I'm inclined to differ when it comes to our conclusions:  I believe the fourth kingdom of iron legs and iron and clay feet will arise in the future, in other words, it's not here yet.

So....yes and no. The fourth kingdom is not here now....sort of. It's received a " wound to the head ". When the allies disbanded the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1........that was their head wound. When they revive, they will be the fourth terrifying beast. There are approximately 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. If 10 percent are radical, that's 180 million spread out around the world. If the Mahdi rallies them all to jihad..... well, need I say anymore. 

Lastly, regarding the identities of each of the metallic parts of the image,  one hypothesis is the following and I'd like to know what you think (especially about # 3 in the list below):

1. Gold=Babylon
2. Silver=Persia
3. Copper=Greco-Roman empires (Greece and later Rome)
4. Iron legs with iron and clay feet=The King of the North (it will appear in the future or it's already in the making)

So King Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Dan 2 tells us what the first metal is. Gold. It's King Neb's kingdom...Babylon

It does not tell us what the other metals represent, other than they are kingdoms. So yes, silver is Persia and Copper/Bronze is Greek. I disagree with Rome. It's only talking about 4 kingdoms. I answered this in the beginning of my response to you.

The iron legs/iron and clay feet......The iron legs is the 4th kingdom, Islam. The iron/clay feet and toes...."they will not adhere to each other just as iron and clay do not mix".......

This might refer to Sunni / Shia Islam....or it might refer to the dominating influence that Islam now has at the United Nations.....not sure yet. I'm still studying/researching this. I don't believe this is the King of the North.

“He (Ishmael) will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.”

[Leonardo Von]

On 9/19/2020 at 1:17 PM, JoeCanada said:

Is the fourth kingdom Rome?

Yes, it is.

[abcdef]

The statue is not about the land masses and borders.

It is showing the gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel until Jerusalem is restored.

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls to Nebuchadnezzar.

The toes end when Jerusalem is restored to the control of the people of Israel.

The toes of the statue ended in 1967 and it has been 54 years since then. Every day brings us closer to the stone striking.

-------

Many believe that the stone striking is showing the beginning of the new covenant kingdom on planet earth. But the new covenant Pentecost kingdom began on Pentecost in 33 AD. This would place the beginning of the kingdom shortly after the iron of the statue began in 63 BC, when Rome entered Israel.

This assumes that the division of the legs was the dividing of the Roman Empire in the 3rd century and the 10 toes represent the fall of Rome in the 476 AD time period.

So the stone striking is when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 2nd resurrection (there are only 2 resurrections, 1st Jesus and the OT saints, 2nd coming for the kingdom both good and evil).

The result of the strike is shown by the statue turning to dust/powder, that is showing that the nations are broken down into individual souls where they are judged and separated from the wheat.

The souls that are rejected are shown as chaff being blown away by the spirit wind, where those souls are cast away from the presence of God and the new earth. Also see Rev 20:11 as a parallel passage.

In contrast to the chaff being blown away, the souls of the kingdom would be the harvest of wheat to be brought into the new earth.

--------

But that is not the only thing that the stone striking shows.

After the stone strikes, there is no more planet earth, it is turned to fire, by the fire from heaven of Rev 20:9.

There is a new earth yes, but this old planet earth will not support human life ever again. In fact, it flies away at the last judgment.

The stone striking the statue is the fire from heaven in Rev 20 and the 7th vial of Rev 16, they are the same event.

The timing of this event is shown in the 7th trumpet and the 2 witnesses.

The stone will strike, exactly 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, Iran.

-----

Almost everyone thinks that we may be in the time of the brass or iron, but the FACT that Jerusalem was restored to the people of Israel in 1967 PROVES that the toes of the statue have ended.

 

[Charlie744]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:25 PM, abcdef said:

The statue is not about the land masses and borders.

It is showing the gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel until Jerusalem is restored.

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls to Nebuchadnezzar.

The toes end when Jerusalem is restored to the control of the people of Israel.

The toes of the statue ended in 1967 and it has been 54 years since then. Every day brings us closer to the stone striking.

-------

Many believe that the stone striking is showing the beginning of the new covenant kingdom on planet earth. But the new covenant Pentecost kingdom began on Pentecost in 33 AD. This would place the beginning of the kingdom shortly after the iron of the statue began in 63 BC, when Rome entered Israel.

This assumes that the division of the legs was the dividing of the Roman Empire in the 3rd century and the 10 toes represent the fall of Rome in the 476 AD time period.

So the stone striking is when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 2nd resurrection (there are only 2 resurrections, 1st Jesus and the OT saints, 2nd coming for the kingdom both good and evil).

The result of the strike is shown by the statue turning to dust/powder, that is showing that the nations are broken down into individual souls where they are judged and separated from the wheat.

The souls that are rejected are shown as chaff being blown away by the spirit wind, where those souls are cast away from the presence of God and the new earth. Also see Rev 20:11 as a parallel passage.

In contrast to the chaff being blown away, the souls of the kingdom would be the harvest of wheat to be brought into the new earth.

--------

But that is not the only thing that the stone striking shows.

After the stone strikes, there is no more planet earth, it is turned to fire, by the fire from heaven of Rev 20:9.

There is a new earth yes, but this old planet earth will not support human life ever again. In fact, it flies away at the last judgment.

The stone striking the statue is the fire from heaven in Rev 20 and the 7th vial of Rev 16, they are the same event.

The timing of this event is shown in the 7th trumpet and the 2 witnesses.

The stone will strike, exactly 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, Iran.

-----

Almost everyone thinks that we may be in the time of the brass or iron, but the FACT that Jerusalem was restored to the people of Israel in 1967 PROVES that the toes of the statue have ended.

 

I literally just went onto this site and noticed this topic for the first time. I have not  yet gone back to page 1 to begin reading all the responses - just this last page so far so please note I am just jumping in right now.....

Anyway, I have been attempting to study the book of Daniel for almost 2 years now and have some very different interpretations.... and hopefully, they will make some sense to more than myself....

One of the most important interpretations within Daniel is of course the metal man image of chapter 2. If one misinterprets the metal man image, it will have a devastating effect on the rest of Daniel and also those misinterpretations that will carry forward to Revelation.

Before one focuses on Daniel's interpretation sequence  they must first focus on the dream sequence. The dream sequence sets all the boundaries and divisions of the metal man image and prevents (should prevent) us from stepping (interpreting) outside the lines. The dream sequence establishes the beginning of the image - Babylon and it establishes the end of the image - which is NOT the feet and toes, but the "Stone" crushing the image into dust or powder. And this event only comes at the end of time when Jesus returns. 

The dream sequence also establishes the internal boundaries as well. God has specifically identified four separate body parts along with their own "color code" if you will in the form of the type of metal. Each are identified by these two means AND they are provided to show us the sequence of the four kingdoms and there is NO separations between each  of the coming kingdoms. Essentially, God has given us the external boundaries and the internal boundaries or constraints that will allow us to interpret this image and the four kingdoms appropriately. Consequently, we are not to attempt to add to or subtract from the structure and make up of this image. God has given us all the constraints to color within these very identifiable set of lines.

So, if we skip down the the legs of iron along with the feet and toes, we find this is the fourth and final kingdom. There is absolutely NO doubt the legs of iron come after Greece and represent "pagan Rome". That is the easy part, but the feet and toes are not! So far no one has been able to properly interpret the meaning of the feet and toes; not the particular actors making up the feet and toes, the purpose for the different types of clay, the seeds of men actor, and certainly the timing of all these actors and events that will take place. Almost all agree the "stone" represents God who will destroy the image and then crush everything into dust or powder to be blown away by the wind and this is indeed the case. However, the timing of these two events and the result of each are not correct. The "stone" that strikes the feet (notice it does NOT strike the toes) breaks apart the feet and toes into pieces. When does this take place?  In v.41 we learn more about v. 34..... the "stone" strikes the feet is the same event occurring in v.41 where the "kingdom will be divided". The "stone" does NOT break the entire image into pieces but only the feet and toes. Clearly, the other kingdoms continue in some fashion both in a physical way and also in a spiritual manner.... for example: after the stone strikes the feet we will continue to see Greece and Rome and any and all other pagan beliefs - they have not been broken into pieces and destroyed. This event does indeed represent the Messiah where He would come and "divide"(Luke 12:51). The feet and toes of the fourth kingdom would be struck and the materials would be separated..... God would then be able to use those materials that were NOT "ceramic clay" (those already hardened and crusted which together with the iron would encass those individuals who God could mold - "potter's clay".  God is the "Potter" but had to separate the ceramic clay, the iron and release those individuals that He could mold and receive and accept His message of salvation - the Cross. Those who were already hardened (ceramic clay and iron) would not allow themselves to be placed or used by the Potter to be molded into the vessel they would become and eventually filled by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. So God struck the feet and toes and separated those He could use and make into one of His vessels. 

The final event of the "crushing into powder" does indeed occur and by Jesus at His second coming. This is when all man's kingdoms represented by the metal man image will be completely crushed and blown away and no more......

The fourth kingdom of pagan Rome eventually morphs into Papal Rome and will continue until the end of time... this is also the "beast of Daniel 7. There is sooooooo much more to this unbelievable book but because I am attempting to construct a commentary of the 12 chapters I reluctantly can not reveal too many other interpretations such as the toes....... 

Anyway, just my thoughts!  Thanks, Charlie

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I literally just went onto this site and noticed this topic for the first time. I have not  yet gone back to page 1 to begin reading all the responses - just this last page so far so please note I am just jumping in right now.....

Anyway, I have been attempting to study the book of Daniel for almost 2 years now and have some very different interpretations.... and hopefully, they will make some sense to more than myself....

One of the most important interpretations within Daniel is of course the metal man image of chapter 2. If one misinterprets the metal man image, it will have a devastating effect on the rest of Daniel and also those misinterpretations that will carry forward to Revelation.

Before one focuses on Daniel's interpretation sequence  they must first focus on the dream sequence. The dream sequence sets all the boundaries and divisions of the metal man image and prevents (should prevent) us from stepping (interpreting) outside the lines.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The dream sequence establishes the beginning of the image - Babylon and it establishes the end of the image - which is NOT the feet and toes, but the "Stone" crushing the image into dust or powder.

"The end of the image", the toes of the image end when the opposite of the beginning of the image happens. That is, the image begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored to control of the people of Israel (1967).

The image is broken to pieces when the stone strikes after Jerusalem is restored.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And this event only comes at the end of time when Jesus returns. 

Yes, the stone striking is Jesus at the resur/rapt, second resurrection, when He comes for the kingdom.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The dream sequence also establishes the internal boundaries as well. God has specifically identified four separate body parts along with their own "color code" if you will in the form of the type of metal. Each are identified by these two means AND they are provided to show us the sequence of the four kingdoms and there is NO separations between each  of the coming kingdoms. Essentially, God has given us the external boundaries and the internal boundaries or constraints that will allow us to interpret this image and the four kingdoms appropriately. Consequently, we are not to attempt to add to or subtract from the structure and make up of this image. God has given us all the constraints to color within these very identifiable set of lines.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, if we skip down the the legs of iron along with the feet and toes, we find this is the fourth and final kingdom. There is absolutely NO doubt the legs of iron come after Greece and represent "pagan Rome".

Yes, the iron begins in 63 BC when the Roman Empire takes control of the people of Israel.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

That is the easy part, but the feet and toes are not! So far no one has been able to properly interpret the meaning of the feet and toes; not the particular actors making up the feet and toes,

The feet and toes are still with iron. This shows the continued presence of Rome over the people of Israel. The clay can only be identified as non Roman people who share dominion over the people of Israel.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

the purpose for the different types of clay, the seeds of men actor, and certainly the timing of all these actors and events that will take place.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Almost all agree the "stone" represents God who will destroy the image and then crush everything into dust or powder to be blown away by the wind and this is indeed the case.

Yes, God destroys the gentile nations that make up the statue.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

However, the timing of these two events and the result of each are not correct.

The timing is correct. It is up to us to understand the timing given to us.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The "stone" that strikes the feet (notice it does NOT strike the toes) breaks apart the feet and toes into pieces. When does this take place?  In v.41 we learn more about v. 34..... the "stone" strikes the feet is the same event occurring in v.41 where the "kingdom will be divided".

The new covenant Pentecost kingdom/church, causes the iron to divide/break into pieces, first at the legs in the 3rd century, then it causes the iron to be divided by the clay, then it divides the Roman Empire into the ten toes.

The devouring of the nations of the statue is the conversion of souls into the new covenant Pentecost kingdom/church, Col 1:13, which happens while the statue is still standing.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The "stone" does NOT break the entire image into pieces but only the feet and toes.

Dan. 2:35, "Then was the iron, the clay, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, .... "

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Clearly, the other kingdoms continue in some fashion both in a physical way and also in a spiritual manner.... for example: after the stone strikes the feet we will continue to see Greece and Rome and any and all other pagan beliefs - they have not been broken into pieces and destroyed.

Dan 2:35, the toes do not continue after the stone strikes, they are all broken together.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

This event does indeed represent the Messiah where He would come and "divide"(Luke 12:51). The feet and toes of the fourth kingdom would be struck and the materials would be separated..... God would then be able to use those materials that were NOT "ceramic clay" (those already hardened and crusted which together with the iron would encass those individuals who God could mold - "potter's clay".  God is the "Potter" but had to separate the ceramic clay, the iron and release those individuals that He could mold and receive and accept His message of salvation - the Cross. Those who were already hardened (ceramic clay and iron) would not allow themselves to be placed or used by the Potter to be molded into the vessel they would become and eventually filled by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. So God struck the feet and toes and separated those He could use and make into one of His vessels.

The gentile nations that are ended, are separated into chaff and wheat. The chaff souls are blown away and do not remain.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The final event of the "crushing into powder" does indeed occur and by Jesus at His second coming. This is when all man's kingdoms represented by the metal man image will be completely crushed and blown away and no more......

Yes, so then they cannot remain as nations after the stone strikes.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The fourth kingdom of pagan Rome eventually morphs into Papal Rome and will continue until the end of time..

This I agree with, but the end of time as we know it is when the stone strikes.

 

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

this is also the "beast of Daniel 7. There is sooooooo much more to this unbelievable book but because I am attempting to construct a commentary of the 12 chapters I reluctantly can not reveal too many other interpretations such as the toes....... 

Anyway, just my thoughts!  Thanks, Charlie

Good thoughts.

-----

The statue is a timeline.

The time of the feet is followed by a divided Rome which is also divided by the clay.

The toes end before the stone strikes showing the restoration of Jerusalem.

The stone cannot destroy the statue before the toes because then the toes would not exist, in the timeline.

The nations of metal still exist at the time that the stone strikes, but their rule over the people of Israel and Jerusalem has ended, ending the toes and the time of the statue.

The idea of the stone striking the feet is that the stone striking ends the entire statue of the gentile nations causing their end.

 

[Markie51]

On 9/19/2020 at 3:40 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

I agree its not Rome. 

And I've came to the conclusion that the 4th beast was Nebuchadnezars kingdom devided as it is today. Same as the ten horns and the little horn that shares the kingdom with them. The little horn that is diverse from the others and appears stouter is Israel. The ten who attack Jerusalem and make war with the Lamb are ten Muslim nations. In the end the beast is destroyed and his kingdom is given to the saints. That's why its called the promised land. It was always promised to the seed of Abraham(Christ). 

Of course no one believes me.

Yes the fourth beast is Rome.-Daniel 2:32, 40; 7:7.

The third beast was the king of Greece.-Daniel 2:39; 8:21, 22.

The second beast was Darius-king of the Medes/Persians.-Daniel 2:39; 5:28; 8:20. 

On 9/19/2020 at 3:40 PM, Shilohsfoal said: