Medical Student Vaccine Advice

[arkbuilder1000]

Hello, 

I just graduated from Med School as an MLT. I am about to apply to jobs but have had some nagging theological questions hindering me.

First, what about the current vaccine controversy? I am specifically talking about embryonic tissue usage in certain ones. I have found it disturbing and wrong. I realize the pope suggested we use what is left and advocate for no more, but I feel this is the same as advocating for cannibalism because someone else already cooked the meat. Would you have a rebuttal to aborted tissue pharmaceuticals being Biblically allowable to use? 

Second, how do you or your facilities avoid mandatory vaccines. I have not ventured into that territory. I think it is risky, but I am praying about either that or getting out of medicine for conscious sake. I feel testing titers for example is aiding the problem also, so as is using them. 

Lastly, are you aware of any opportunities that allow for my convictions in my field? My only current thought was possibly medical missions.

Thanks for reading my post, my purpose for this is to receive medical advice. Feel free to post if you have experience, but please know I am hoping for more specific answers. Examples are related to embryonic cell lines, HELA cells (prob botching that), and laboratory policy. I am pro vaccine just not embryonic cultures. I am willing to listen to all answers. Many thanks!

[Justin Adams]

Perhaps medical missionary is a good field. There are millions that need your help and your ministry.

[other one]

The fetal embryo fibroblast cells used to grow vaccine viruses were obtained from elective termination of two pregnancies in the early 1960s.

[LonerAndy]

On 10/10/2020 at 12:27 AM, arkbuilder1000 said:

Hello, 

I just graduated from Med School as an MLT. I am about to apply to jobs but have had some nagging theological questions hindering me.

First, what about the current vaccine controversy? I am specifically talking about embryonic tissue usage in certain ones. I have found it disturbing and wrong. I realize the pope suggested we use what is left and advocate for no more, but I feel this is the same as advocating for cannibalism because someone else already cooked the meat. Would you have a rebuttal to aborted tissue pharmaceuticals being Biblically allowable to use? 

Second, how do you or your facilities avoid mandatory vaccines. I have not ventured into that territory. I think it is risky, but I am praying about either that or getting out of medicine for conscious sake. I feel testing titers for example is aiding the problem also, so as is using them. 

Lastly, are you aware of any opportunities that allow for my convictions in my field? My only current thought was possibly medical missions.

Thanks for reading my post, my purpose for this is to receive medical advice. Feel free to post if you have experience, but please know I am hoping for more specific answers. Examples are related to embryonic cell lines, HELA cells (prob botching that), and laboratory policy. I am pro vaccine just not embryonic cultures. I am willing to listen to all answers. Many thanks!

I'm not catholic, and so the pope doesn't mean much to me.  If you are catholic then I would suggest you talk to your local priest.

The key for me and vaccines, is are you directly involved?  If not, then I'm not going to sweat it.   You have to follow your own conscious before G-d.  If you believe it is wrong, then you need to avoid it.  That's all you can do.

Mandatory vaccines are now part of life.  Vote for people who support freedom, but otherwise, you need to follow the law.

https://careers.samaritanspurse.org/search/jobs

Plenty of medical jobs.

[missmuffet]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:27 PM, arkbuilder1000 said:

Hello, 

I just graduated from Med School as an MLT. I am about to apply to jobs but have had some nagging theological questions hindering me.

First, what about the current vaccine controversy? I am specifically talking about embryonic tissue usage in certain ones. I have found it disturbing and wrong. I realize the pope suggested we use what is left and advocate for no more, but I feel this is the same as advocating for cannibalism because someone else already cooked the meat. Would you have a rebuttal to aborted tissue pharmaceuticals being Biblically allowable to use? 

Second, how do you or your facilities avoid mandatory vaccines. I have not ventured into that territory. I think it is risky, but I am praying about either that or getting out of medicine for conscious sake. I feel testing titers for example is aiding the problem also, so as is using them. 

Lastly, are you aware of any opportunities that allow for my convictions in my field? My only current thought was possibly medical missions.

Thanks for reading my post, my purpose for this is to receive medical advice. Feel free to post if you have experience, but please know I am hoping for more specific answers. Examples are related to embryonic cell lines, HELA cells (prob botching that), and laboratory policy. I am pro vaccine just not embryonic cultures. I am willing to listen to all answers. Many thanks!

Yes it is disturbing and wrong. But that is not going to keep me from getting certain vaccines. Christians should encourage pharmaceutical companies to seek alternatives to the development of vaccines that are important to keep us from diseases. 

[Tristen]

Hi Arkbuiler1000

You said, “First, what about the current vaccine controversy? I am specifically talking about embryonic tissue usage in certain ones. I have found it disturbing and wrong”

I do not see a clear moral issue with using these cultured cell lines in research. The original abortions were certainly morally reprehensible. But researchers deriving immortal cell lines from abortion samples is no different to cell lines developed from living or recently-deceased adults. In fact, with the right technology, the samples that produced these cell lines could have been taken from living embryos/foetuses – without any ill effects on the baby's development. So the existence of the cell line is not the moral evil, but the original sampling context is where the moral accountability rests. There are too many degrees of separation between the original, evil event, and the person receiving the vaccine, for anyone receiving the vaccine to be morally accountable for that original event.

A few important points;

- Immortal cell lines are cells that can be made to reproduce over-and-over again (most cells can only reproduce a limited amount of times). So use of these cells will not ever require a replenishment of the original stock from a new embryo.

- These cells are not embryos or even technically 'embryo' cells. They are, more correctly, cell lines descended from cells originally derived from embryos. For example, HEK293 cells are kidney cells descended from cells originally taken from an embryonic sample.

- The cell lines are used in the research, development and proliferation of the vaccine, but the vaccine itself will contain no element of these cells.

 

Now, to be clear, there is research that does require a constant replenishment of products from abortions. For example, embryonic stem cell research. I consider this kind of research to be fundamentally immoral from a Christian perspective.

 

“Second, how do you or your facilities avoid mandatory vaccines”

In Australia (where I live), vaccines are only mandated for certain jobs (i.e. where you might be exposed to certain pathogens), and when travelling to certain international regions. Nevertheless, we are having the conversation with COVID.

This is more an issue of general liberty than medical ethics. Regardless of legislation, it's not morally the medical practitioner's responsibility to force a needle in someone's arm against their will. That's up to the state to regulate. You have a responsibility of confidentiality between you and your patient. Even though I am pro-vaccine, an individual should have the right to refuse to take chemicals into their body – unless they are considered mentally incapable of making that decision for themselves (and maybe a few other contexts where one's personal right to liberty has been revoked for legally justifiable reasons).

 

“Lastly, are you aware of any opportunities that allow for my convictions in my field? My only current thought was possibly medical missions”

It's hard to answer without knowing your specialisation. There are many Christian medical organisations. Samaritan’s Purse is one example that was recently in the media. There would also be opportunities in research and/or academia. You could consider private practice. Many large international organisations have medical consultants that only serve the company (i.e. private organisations that only care about how well you do your job).

 

“Feel free to post if you have experience, but please know I am hoping for more specific answers”

My experience is more research related, than clinical.

 

“Examples are related to embryonic cell lines, HELA cells (prob botching that), and laboratory policy”

HeLa cells are a cell line derived originally from an adult cervical cancer sample, not an unborn child. Most human cell lines used in research were originally derived from cancer samples.

 

“I am pro vaccine just not embryonic cultures”

I hope from my above explanation that you understand that “embryonic cultures” is not an entirely accurate characterisation of these cell lines.

 

[arkbuilder1000]

Thank you all for the advice. Yes, that was my mistake on describing the Hela cells, however my intention was to include it in the discussion as from my understanding - the utilization was done without consent. I should have clarified (hence why I listed it as an example). 

 

I am not Catholic, however the argument he made seems to be reiterated, so I used it as a reference. Why I added my reasoning against using cell lines like HEK293 are similar to why you wouldn't ingest human placentas. Dignity of the person. In scripture we see it forbidden to eat the blood of animals, as this seems to me to represent the life of the animal and not just it's components. While I wholeheartedly agree tissue is just tissue, the same goes for spiritual wellbeing. God "transplanted" a rib for a good purpose, but I think most would agree consent is appropriate for humans engaging in medicine. I would agree except on the grounds of consent, as I hope doctors still follow the laws regarding organ donation. I had also read an article they had to actually time the abortion to coincide with cell preservation, but I cannot find it for HEK cells so this is conjecture for the discussion. 

 

My original consensus was the same as most here, since many vaccines such as the MMR have used older cell lines. As I dug further it became more disturbing to me. The first reason being the promise of adult stem cells, and how many non-human cell lines or embryos would likely be sufficient for use instead. If anyone is interested I can dig up the articles.

 

Second, these lines required perfectly viable infant tissue that was differentiated enough to be called actual kidney cells like you mentioned. The infant would have been healthy and thriving. This is more disturbing if you read about how several Coronavirus vaccines already have been reusing these cells instead of using animal tissue like many other vaccines already use. Just because it's harder to do, doesn't make it less legitimate to me. 

 

As far as the cells being old, there are more than the HEK 293, there is PER.C 6, WI 26 which was fetal lung tissue. Here is an example seller listing: 

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/cb_89101301?lang=en&region=US. My struggle is while we continue to legitimize their use, there is no incentive to utilize animal tissue or adult stem cells. Enbrel is a pharmaceutical that was developed from the WI 26 line. There was even one just made in 2015 called WALVAX 2. Here is a link: https://www.informedchoicewa.org/human-fetal-cells/. It is my knowledge they are trying to use this for newer vaccines in the future. Although I agree they last a long time, practically the strains are not immune to contamination or varying traits developing over time making them less reliable. I do see your point on differences between immortal lines and active testing, but as I mentioned above there is still some reasons why I am still apprehensive about "immortal" lines.

 

To me, there is no differentiation between a derivative product and it's orgin collection methods. Sure, if the embryo was actually born that'd be a different story, but these lines came from actual infants not embryos. Plus I believe life begins at conception, which I respect if anyone disagrees however that is my own view. The Bible seems to define us as Spirits with bodies, not the other way around unless someone is willing to influence me otherwise. Also, these will eventually run out, since they only have so many effective doubling cycles. No line is infinite, if we don't stop now I don't see how we would stop using them. Prices are influenced by demand and policy. So I agree we should follow laws, but if I must I am considering drawing a line in the sand on using these types of vaccines on myself or promoting it in any way. That being finding another occupation. I want to do either one with 110%.

 

Lastly, a related topic involves snowflake adoption. A sordid consequence of devaluing embryos happens during in-vitro fertilization. Because it is only safe to implant more then a few and the fertilize many at a time, frozen embryos often get destroyed during disputes or loss of ability to pay. While it seems unrelated, we are also not far off from making artificial wombs so Star Wars type scenarios might be possible in the lingering future. The way I see it now is if we continue to sell these lines, they are incentivized to make another like the WALVAX 2.

 

I graduated with an ASCP Medical Laboratory Technologist diploma, and was trained to be a generalist. I took the vaccines for my rotation, and wish I had been more vigilant about studying these. They really never talked about these in class so I chalked it up to them being old cell lines.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by arkbuilder1000
Typo

[arkbuilder1000]

Part of my concern also revolves around taking them and running the titres for certain vaccines. 

While the titres are not quite so bothersome, the expectation/pressure for lab techs to support all current vaccines seems to be quite high. Publicly dissenting certain vaccines as a lab tech does not seem possible inside the career. Esp. with certain COVID vaccines coming on market.

[arkbuilder1000]

Oh and thanks everyone for the great discussion!