conciousness & anesthesia

[Chris Schutte]

50 minutes ago, leah777 said:

In the deaths I have witnessed, there is definitely a change in the person's face immediately after death. They no longer look 'real' and 'present' in the same way as before. It's hard to describe.

Whereas, under anaesthesia, they remain real and present. 

Many do die peacefully, not drugged peace, simply passing from life to physical death with no struggle. I find this reassuring.

wouldn't you say that it might be possible that they don't look "present" or "real" simply because the physical animation of biological life is now absent ?

i know what you mean though and can relate 

[leah777]

Just now, Chris Schutte said:

the physical animation of biological life is now absent ?

Please define what you mean. It's different from a coma, or deep sleep, or anaesthesia.

Do you mean the soul?

[Chris Schutte]

7 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Please define what you mean. It's different from a coma, or deep sleep, or anaesthesia.

Do you mean the soul?

what i meant was being biologically alive animates the body; in the absence of biological life the body can no longer animate the fact that it is alive; biologically speaking ..

a dead mouse also looks "absent" or "not present" when no longer biologically alive

i trust that clarifies

Edited October 19, 2020 by Chris Schutte

[leah777]

Perhaps these are things I can't express in English. But no, not like a dead animal or fish etc. 

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I questioned similar things. This is an atheist counter argument to the soul too. People are sometimes tempted to doubt that we are intact as a soul after death.

I am the type to question everything within reason so far as I can ascertain. As a believer I would believe we have a soul, even if there were no scientific proof because I believe what God says about it. This doesn't mean I haven't thought about HOW we come to be separated and continue to live.

One of my first basic questions was, why can't I see with my eyes closed? The answer is both simple and complex. It would seem that since we are a soul, the body should not hinder sight without eyes. Yet we are "tied" to these bodies of flesh, interfaced to them in the physical world. So long as we are alive we are in the body and we must live with the consequences. The minute we are loosed from the body I am of the opinion we are no longer tied to the body and other rules come into play which might make no sense to us now in this realm.

On the operating table we are still tied to our body being kept alive. There doesn't seem to be much of an in between state. We are one or the other.

The Bible says we will have a new body in glory. Obviously this means we will have bodies there too. Jesus had a body when He rose again. We are promised a new body. Until then what happens?  I believe we are cognitive of our surroundings just in another context. To what degree we have physical freedom and ability I don't know while we are in this interim state. 

One of those on the cross beside Jesus when He died was promised he would be with him that very day in glory. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Interesting discussion! I know three things for certain. (1) Having anesthesia for surgery sure is a blessing from pain and remaining still for repairs. (2) The brain doesn't completely shut down; our brain is responsible to keep our heart and breathing going, and prevent us from soiling ourselves in deep anesthesia. (3) Roughly 1% will experience a very bad reaction or death from deep anesthesia. Taken from the book, "Dennis II Opinions".

On a related side note pertaining to anesthesia: We're composed of body, soul and spirit. I reckon it to a tire being the body, the inner tube being the soul, and the air being the spirit. The soul is "us" who we are and our personalities, our body as a tent. 

Can a spirit be anesthetized? I don't think so. Can our physical soul be anesthetized in our bodies? Souls will feel pain and suffering and have all their senses in Hell. Therefore; our souls by that definition, must have some sort of measurable weight, form and mass? 

Here I went all philosophical even without a degree  But I'm working on my DVM, by watching every episode of "The Incredible Dr. Poll".

[Chris Schutte]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

Can a spirit be anesthetized? I don't think so. Can our physical soul be anesthetized in our bodies? Souls will feel pain and suffering and have all their senses in Hell. Therefore; our souls by that definition, must have some sort of measurable weight, form and mass? 

 

From what I can tell one's soul comprises of mind, reason, will, emotions, thoughts, etc ..

How could these have measurable substance or weight if they are immaterial ?

[Speks]

May I ask, Chris, why this particular subject is of interest to you?

Does it go back to those experiences you shared here earlier in the year? Are you exploring Biblical teaching in some way and the opinion of others is of interest?

[Chris Schutte]

52 minutes ago, Speks said:

May I ask, Chris, why this particular subject is of interest to you?

Does it go back to those experiences you shared here earlier in the year? Are you exploring Biblical teaching in some way and the opinion of others is of interest?

Anything I cannot figure out by way of coherent logic and reason interests me. Not that everything can be understood of course; our minds are mostly limited to what we could ordinarily discover in the four dimensions of space-time. 

I have a habit of always questioning and challenging topics or subjects that remain unresolved in my head.

So the experiences, feedback and opinions of other like minded people I always find valuable. 

Discussing topics of interest can be an eye opener; I find there's usually some person with a fresh take on a matter not previuosly considered by myself.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Chris Schutte

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, Chris Schutte said:

From what I can tell one's soul comprises of mind, reason, will, emotions, thoughts, etc ..

How could these have measurable substance or weight if they are immaterial ?

True, our souls are our true selves and what makes us unique. It's only my flawed thoughts. The things that make up our soul using your example; by what process and means are they accomplished in the body? Is matter, mass, space and energy involved? At present, are these material things that make up whom we are on the inside?

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [emphasis added]

Double-edged sword A weapon of warfare. The word of God can penetrate the immaterial and the material—meaning the whole person.

I take it to mean a separation of the spirit [immaterial]; from the soul [material]. No matter how small, it seems to me material is matter; matter occupies space and time and has weight? 

Why would there be a division of soul and spirit? 

Soul:  6034 ψυχή (psychē), ῆς (ēs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 5883; Str 5590; TDNT 9.608—1. LN 26.4 inner self, heart, mind; a psychological faculty (Ac 4:32; Eph 6:6; Heb 12:3); 2. LN 23.88 life, life, soul, the self (often translated by the personal pronoun); that which is in someone to give animate life and distinction (Ro 11:3); 3. LN 9.20 person, as a living being (Ac 2:41; Ro 2:9); note: see LN index for a fuller treatment of the lexical units.   ψυχικόν (psychikon), οῦ (ou), τό (to): n.neu. [served by 6035]; ≡ Str 5591—cf. LN 13.1–13.47 the physical state of being, the natural (1Co 15:46+)

1 Corinthians 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[Starise]

19 hours ago, leah777 said:

I offer sorrow for your losses. I wasn't correcting you, just giving a different perspective for some deaths. 

Yes, people seem to shrink when their life force leaves.

Should I comment on what may have been happening when your father tried to breath? 

Thank you Leah777. Much appreciated.

Sure comment away if you have thoughts on it