Lordship salvation

[David1701]

23 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Gal 6:1

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
KJV
 

That's better; but, you can only restore someone who admits the fault and is sorry about it....

[enoob57]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

That's better; but, you can only restore someone who admits the fault and is sorry about it....

I think the more important issue is keeping in the fellowship with God and maintaining a love for others no matter what they do... for is it not more important to please God more than ourselves
 

Isa 66:5

5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
KJV

when this imprints itself upon the heart nothing from man should be able to pull us away from the desire for His Glory to be maintained  

[Don19]

10 hours ago, David1701 said:

 

Quote

If you tell a new convert, to believe in Christ and that the evidence that he has truly believed to the saving of his soul is that he will live a lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ, which you might wrongly call "sanctification," then you have mixed law and grace.

 

What are you talking about?!  This is nothing like what I believe!

1) A new convert has already believed in Christ, otherwise he would not be a convert at all!

2) What is this rubbish about a "lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ"?  Where do you get that drivel from?  It is certainly not what I believe, nor, more importantly, is it what the Bible says.

3) There are several biblical evidences that you have been saved.

a) You have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and only in him.

b) You believe that Jesus is God and man

c) You have the witness of the Holy Spirit

d) You bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, in willing submission to the Lord

e) You do not live a life characterised by sin (this is not sinless perfection)

There are others; but these are some of the main ones.

Please STOP making things up about what I believe.  You clearly do not understand much, so ASK, don't assume!

I understand you believe this is what the Bible teaches. However, everyone who holds to false doctrine also believes the Bible teaches whatever false doctrine he holds to. And here's the heart of what I'm getting at. How did you not just contradict yourself? You say that's not what you believe, but then you lay out your beliefs in a manner consistent with how I described them!

Let's say someone just said to you, that he just believed in Jesus Christ for the first time today, and he is now 100% sure that he is saved. He has died with Christ spiritually, saying, with Christ, "it is finished." 

Based on what you said here, are you not in opposition to that? If you wanted to be honest with him, would you not have to say something along of the lines of,

"Well, that's great that you believed in Jesus! Now, the evidence that you are truly saved is that you will walk in willing submission to the Lord, and not live a life characterized by sin (howbeit, this is not sinless perfectionism)."

In other words, he cannot have assurance, since he has only just believed. He hasn't had time yet to show forth the other evidences that you require.

Yet, as I pointed out in my last post, the Bible teaches an accomplish and assured salvation when you believe, which is given by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The testimony of the Holy Spirit is sufficient, without needing to look to yourself to see whether you walk worthy of your calling. The NT has examples of true believers who don't walk worthy of their calling! But still, they're saved. The calling and gifts of God are without repentance (Rom 11:29).

In fact, as long as you are still alive, I would argue you can never have assurance, with the criteria you have set forth. Maybe you've lived in accordance with those criteria for 50 years. Yet, if you're still alive, you may not yet "persevere" in good works. Maybe you fall into a major, habitual sin.

But the grace is God not like that. God gives assurance that our salvation is complete, and irrevocable, at our moment of conversion by the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:2, 3:14). Therefore, the criteria you've set forth are false. You've added leaven, which leaveneth the whole lump!

Edited November 7, 2020 by Don19

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[David1701]

16 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I think the more important issue is keeping in the fellowship with God and maintaining a love for others no matter what they do... for is it not more important to please God more than ourselves
 

Isa 66:5

5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
KJV

when this imprints itself upon the heart nothing from man should be able to pull us away from the desire for His Glory to be maintained  

You're right.  Sometimes we can be caught up in what's being said or done and take our eyes off the Lord, for a moment.

[David1701]

5 hours ago, Don19 said:

I understand you believe this is what the Bible teaches. However, everyone who holds to false doctrine also believes the Bible teaches whatever false doctrine he holds to. And here's the heart of what I'm getting at. How did you not just contradict yourself? You say that's not what you believe, but then you lay out your beliefs in a manner consistent with how I described them!

Let's say someone just said to you, that he just believed in Jesus Christ for the first time today, and he is now 100% sure that he is saved. He has died with Christ spiritually, saying, with Christ, "it is finished." 

Based on what you said here, are you not in opposition to that? If you wanted to be honest with him, would you not have to say something along of the lines of,

"Well, that's great that you believed in Jesus! Now, the evidence that you are truly saved is that you will walk in willing submission to the Lord, and not live a life characterized by sin (howbeit, this is not sinless perfectionism)."

In other words, he cannot have assurance, since he has only just believed. He hasn't had time yet to show forth the other evidences that you require.

Yet, as I pointed out in my last post, the Bible teaches an accomplish and assured salvation when you believe, which is given by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The testimony of the Holy Spirit is sufficient, without needing to look to yourself to see whether you walk worthy of your calling. The NT has examples of true believers who don't walk worthy of their calling! But still, they're saved. The calling and gifts of God are without repentance (Rom 11:29).

In fact, as long as you are still alive, I would argue you can never have assurance, with the criteria you have set forth. Maybe you've lived in accordance with those criteria for 50 years. Yet, if you're still alive, you may not yet "persevere" in good works. Maybe you fall into a major, habitual sin.

But the grace is God not like that. God gives assurance that our salvation is complete, and irrevocable, at our moment of conversion by the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:2, 3:14). Therefore, the criteria you've set forth are false. You've added leaven, which leaveneth the whole lump!

What does the Bible say about people who claim to be saved and to believe in the Lord, but who live their lives in a way that is habitually contrary to the Lord's will?

I have said enough and you will not listen, so I will leave you with the words of the Lord himself.

Matt. 7:21-23 (WEB)

21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 
23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’ 

Matt. 25:41-46 (WEB)

41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 
42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ 
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” 

[Don19]

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

What does the Bible say about people who claim to be saved and to believe in the Lord, but who live their lives in a way that is habitually contrary to the Lord's will?

I have said enough and you will not listen, so I will leave you with the words of the Lord himself.

Matt. 7:21-23 (WEB)

21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 
23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’ 

Matt. 25:41-46 (WEB)

41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 
42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ 
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” 

 

Okay, so I understand you believe those two passages teach works-based assurance (which is carnal). Those passages don't teach that; in fact, these two passages teach exactly the opposite! Notice how in both instances, it is the workers after the flesh who are rejected. In the first, they did many mighty works; in the second, they ask when did they not do all those good deeds. But the one who works not, but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

[David1701]

1 minute ago, Don19 said:

 

Okay, so I understand you believe those two passages teach works-based assurance (which is carnal). Those passages don't teach that; in fact, these two passages teach exactly the opposite! Notice how in both instances, it is the workers after the flesh who are rejected. In the first, they did many mighty works; in the second, they ask when did they not do all those good deeds. But the one who works not, but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

You do not understand.

You twist the Bible and what others post.

You are insulting.

You teach that genuine Christians can live habitually wicked lives.

I have witnessed to you and corrected your false claims about what I've posted.  You have refused to listen to me, or to the words of the Lord himself.  Goodbye.

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This thread has runs its course.