Great tribulation

[WilliamL]

On 3/29/2021 at 2:21 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/29/2021 at 1:31 PM, WilliamL said:

Your first statement is quite a stretch. Can YOU provide any hint how and why his own blood would have drenched his own garments? And why this description should be taken symbolically?

Many things in Revelation are symbolic. 

True, but that doesn't explain why his blood shed for us would have drenched his own garments.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

True, but that doesn't explain why his blood shed for us would have drenched his own garments.

It is a SYMBOL.  

It is my guess that written on the outside of the scroll or book sealed with 7 seals was the qualifications of who could be found worthy. I suspect it had to be a man who shed his blood, died, then rose again by and with His own power. His blood is the power of the New Covenant. The New Testament is established through His shed blood. 

It seems very logical then that there would be some symbol of His blood when He returns to earth to take possession of what is His by His death and resurrection.

[Retrobyter]

On 3/31/2021 at 11:07 AM, iamlamad said:

It seems you think God and His throne just floats "in the sky" and perhaps on a cloud. Sorry, I don't think that. Everything we read in Scripture tells us the throne of God is in a PLACE, and that place NOT being "the sky."

Isaiah 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

Revelation 7:15
For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Revelation 14:17
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.

Note, There is a TEMPLE. The throne of God is in a TEMPLE.  Where is this temple? It is in a city. Where is this city of God? From many who have been there and seen it tell us the temple is on a PLANET. It is a planet with mountains and rivers quite like earth. 

It seems you choose to ignore Strong's second definition of ouranos :

the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Note: "Where God Dwells."

So is God floating on a cloud out in the ouranos? I doubt it.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry for being somewhat late on this, but I do have to work, and I'm often wiped out at the end of the day. Usually, my Fridays are a little shorter, and I rejuvenate on the weekends!

Regarding Strong's second definition of ouranos, where does God NOT dwell?

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew shaamayim = "the [2] skies"), thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Hebrew: sh'owl = "the grave"), behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

There are certain attributes of God which I whole-heartedly accept. Omnipresence is one of them. David was saying, "No matter where I go, I will find you there ahead of me!" We're also told,

Colossians 1:9-17 (KJV)

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

Now, the beauty of all this is that the HEBREW word for "skies" is "shaamayim" and it is a DUAL word. Most languages have a singular number and a plural number, but Hebrew also has the dual number. Primarily, it's used for things that come in pairs, like feet, hands, eyes, ears, etc. "Shaamayim" is a dual word, too, for the day sky and the night sky. The day sky is pretty limited to what we see in the blue sky above, like the sun, clouds, and birds. But, the night sky is limited ONLY BY WHAT WE CAN SEE of the stars, galaxies, nebulae, et cetera!

Thus, when we read, "If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew shaamayim = "the [2] skies"), thou art there," David was talking about the NIGHT SKY, too! That tells me that God is "omnipresent," "present everywhere at the same time!"

Remember, too, what Shlomoh ("Solomon") said in his prayer to dedicate the Temple:

2 Chronicles 6:18 (KJV)

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

The Hebrew phrase for "the heaven of heavens" is "shaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim." The word "shaameey" is the dual form of the word in the noun construct state, and adding the vav connective, "uw-," puts the word "and" in the phrase (which changes the vowel after the shin from a qamets to a sh'va). And, if we go back to what was named "shaamayim," in Genesis 1:8, we find that it was a "raaqiya`" or an "expanse" of gases that were placed between the waters below the expanse and the waters above the expanse:

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst (in the middle) of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament (Hebrew: raaqiya` = "expanse"), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = "skies" in dual)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

(Note: The "waters above the firmament" were what rained down on the earth for forty days and forty nights as the Flood of Noach's day (Genesis 7-9). Therefore, the "waters above the firmament" are no longer there, having been depleted by the Flood. We now have small pockets of water IN the firmament, which are called "clouds," small pockets of water vapor that condensed upon particles, like dust or smoke, in the air.)

If he had words for it, as we do today, David could have said, "If I make my bed on a planet of Alpha Centauri, thou art there!"

Now, granted, there IS a place in the vacuum of the universe (a place unknown to us but given the descriptive words "Ierousaleem epouranioo" meaning "Jerusalem in-above-the-sky") in Hebrews 12:22) where God is constructing the New Jerusalem RIGHT NOW, which God will bring down to the New Earth after this earth is re-made, but that's not available to us now. IT WILL DESCEND TO THIS EARTH AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, the first 1,000 years of the reign of the Messiah. And, it is THEN, AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, that God will wipe away all tears! NOT BEFORE! It is THEN, AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, that we'll hear the words "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God! And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:3-4.)

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry for being somewhat late on this, but I do have to work, and I'm often wiped out at the end of the day. Usually, my Fridays are a little shorter, and I rejuvenate on the weekends!

Regarding Strong's second definition of ouranos, where does God NOT dwell?

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew shaamayim = "the [2] skies"), thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Hebrew: sh'owl = "the grave"), behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

There are certain attributes of God which I whole-heartedly accept. Omnipresence is one of them. David was saying, "No matter where I go, I will find you there ahead of me!" We're also told,

Colossians 1:9-17 (KJV)

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

Now, the beauty of all this is that the HEBREW word for "skies" is "shaamayim" and it is a DUAL word. Most languages have a singular number and a plural number, but Hebrew also has the dual number. Primarily, it's used for things that come in pairs, like feet, hands, eyes, ears, etc. "Shaamayim" is a dual word, too, for the day sky and the night sky. The day sky is pretty limited to what we see in the blue sky above, like the sun, clouds, and birds. But, the night sky is limited ONLY BY WHAT WE CAN SEE of the stars, galaxies, nebulae, et cetera!

Thus, when we read, "If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew shaamayim = "the [2] skies"), thou art there," David was talking about the NIGHT SKY, too! That tells me that God is "omnipresent," "present everywhere at the same time!"

Remember, too, what Shlomoh ("Solomon") said in his prayer to dedicate the Temple:

2 Chronicles 6:18 (KJV)

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

The Hebrew phrase for "the heaven of heavens" is "shaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim." The word "shaameey" is the dual form of the word in the noun construct state, and adding the vav connective, "uw-," puts the word "and" in the phrase (which changes the vowel after the shin from a qamets to a sh'va). And, if we go back to what was named "shaamayim," in Genesis 1:8, we find that it was a "raaqiya`" or an "expanse" of gases that were placed between the waters below the expanse and the waters above the expanse:

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst (in the middle) of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament (Hebrew: raaqiya` = "expanse"), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = "skies" in dual)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

(Note: The "waters above the firmament" were what rained down on the earth for forty days and forty nights as the Flood of Noach's day (Genesis 7-9). Therefore, the "waters above the firmament" are no longer there, having been depleted by the Flood. We now have small pockets of water IN the firmament, which are called "clouds," small pockets of water vapor that condensed upon particles, like dust or smoke, in the air.)

If he had words for it, as we do today, David could have said, "If I make my bed on a planet of Alpha Centauri, thou art there!"

Now, granted, there IS a place in the vacuum of the universe (a place unknown to us but given the descriptive words "Ierousaleem epouranioo" meaning "Jerusalem in-above-the-sky") in Hebrews 12:22) where God is constructing the New Jerusalem RIGHT NOW, which God will bring down to the New Earth after this earth is re-made, but that's not available to us now. IT WILL DESCEND TO THIS EARTH AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, the first 1,000 years of the reign of the Messiah. And, it is THEN, AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, that God will wipe away all tears! NOT BEFORE! It is THEN, AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, that we'll hear the words "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God! And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:3-4.)

My Friend, life is life, and we live it as it comes, and change it as we can by our faith. I have spent many 12 hour days working, and some longer. While in the Army, Nike Hercules missile batteries, the typical shift was 24 on, 24 off.  When our battery was the "hot" battery, we had to stay ready to fire. That included the daily routine checks on the radars every 4 hours. Often they took up an hour or so. We would sleep a couple hours, then be awake for a couple of hours, day after day, while in hit status.  Worse yet, when we got off our 24 hours on, often we had to go to the admin area and waste a couple more hours!  Therefore, I well understand "wiped out." 

We must remember, God is in three persons. I am convinced it is the Holy Spirit that is everywhere at once, holding ever atom together by the word of His power. But that does not mean Father God seated on His throne is everywhere at once. 

 

I have always believed there was a firmament between waters. Perhaps that was ICE, perhaps not.

I also believe in the New Jerusalem. I believe it is now on the heavenly planet. You probably won't believe that.

There are testimonies of saints who have been there and talked about elevators that take one to another "level." They were amazed to see each level they saw had rivers and fountains! I don't find such testimonies hard to believe.  From what the bible tells us, there is room for many many "levels" in this great city.

Edited April 3, 2021 by iamlamad

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:30 PM, Episcopius said:

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

It does not say THE great tribulation. Greek has a definite article - it is NOT used here.

First of, the failure to include the definite article, does not mean it is not referring to "the great tribulation" I assume by your use of "the great tribulation" you mean the tribulation which occurs during the second half of Daniel's 70th week, that Jesus spoke of in the gospels in His Olivet discourse.

In any case though, the Greek DOES have the definite article:

as you can see here

Feel free to answer as "Buddy"

 

[WilliamL]

On 7/31/2021 at 4:15 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

In any case though, the Greek DOES have the definite article:

Correct: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης; literally, "out of the tribulation the great" = the great tribulation.