Great tribulation

[DeighAnn]

First, is there a "church age", and does it only consist of the last generation?  

No, church "age" and




Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

THERE IS NO NEED FOR A PRE TRIB RAP FOR THERE TO BE MILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF SOULS IN HEAVEN,  AS THAT IS WHAT PAUL IS TELLING US IN THESSALONIANS.  


CHRIST ROSE AND SO HAVE THOSE WHO "SLEEP"

AND IT MUST BE TRUTH BECAUSE WE ARE TOLD 

THEY ARE BROUGHT BACK WITH HIM

TO BE BROUGHT BACK WITH HIM THEY HAVE TO HAVE ALREADY GONE.  IF THEY HADN'T GONE THEN THEY COULD NOT BE BROUGHT BACK.   

[DeighAnn]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:16 AM, kenny2212 said:

We've been told in the bible that only the 144000 Jews (out of all Christians) remain here (Rev. 7:1-8) during the final 7 years. They will be protected (verse 3) just as the Israelites were in Egypt.

You are aware that "Judah" is only ONE of the tribes.  And Judah, who's capital was Jerusalem, are the Jews and the other tribes are not "Jews", no matter how the world may see it.  The tribes were separated into two houses.  Northern and Southern.  House of Israel went into captivity 200 years before the House of Judah.  When the 10 northern tribes aka House of Israel were released they were scattered through out the world. 

NONE OF THEM WERE JEWS.  So out of the 144,000, How many are of the tribe of Judah "Jews" and how many from the other tribes?

The southern house went back to Jerusalem.  THIS IS WHERE you really need to become aware of who went back and WHO THE SYNAGOGUE of Satan is, you know those who say they are Jews and are not.  Those who's replies stated they had never been captives and all the rest of the telling things that help us to discern a good fig from a bad fig.  

[kenny2212]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Revelation 7:3
"...saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

 
 

It goes on to say the origin and number of those who are sealed - Rev. 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Thanks for reading. God bless you.

[kenny2212]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

Yes, it does. Those who are sealed are bondservants, and their number is 144,000. They are bondservants, not Jews. That's what the text states. This is not an addition or in any way and interpretation of what is stated. The text states they are bondservants. A bondservant is someone who incurred a debt and whose debt was purchased such that s/he must now work off that debt. Paul calls himself a bondservant at the beginning of his letters to the Romans, again at the beginning of his letter to the Philippians, and again at the beginning of his letter to Titus. James did the same with his epistle, and Peter did the same at the beginning of his second letter and Jude did the same at the beginning of his letter. Paul tells us in Philippians 2 that Christ himself took the form of a bondservant when being made in the likeness of men (vs. 2:7). The beginning of Revelation states, 

Revelation 1:1-3
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,  who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." 

The book of Revelation calls Moses a bondservant. It is true Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Titus and John were all Jewish but they were Jews of The Way; they were Christians. The 144,000 are bondservants. 

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
"Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?  For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." 

1 Corinthians 7:21-24
"Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.  For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.  You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.  Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called." 

Our debt was purchased by God with the blood of His Son at Calvary. We are God's bondservants. The 144,000 in question are converts to Christ.

 

I rest my case.

[kenny2212]

I rest my case on what you said...

Edited November 29, 2020 by kenny2212

[Revelation Man]

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Again, there is no such thing as 'church age'. This is the fallacy of dispensationalism. It's a dead doctrine so just give it up.

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Not according to the Holy Scriptures. Jesus even gives us the "Church Age" in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 as the "THINGS WHICH ARE". 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

The season does not equal 42 months. No scripture says that. You do, but not scripture. You are equating the beast's reign with the length of time the martyrs are under the altar. No evidence points to that, it's an assumption by you. You are arguing from silence as in; the facts do not exist so you just pick whatever you'd like it to say. Shame, shame....

The shame is in you not being able to add simple math for starters and to read simple scriptures that say this.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev. 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, if you can't add up the Number of Days the Beast reigns from the above scriptures, you are just not paying attention, at all.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

It's not .0001% proven. You begin with a false premise (Church Age), then add a false equivalency (Beast's reign=time under the altar) stir in a false assumption (The beheaded= the martyrs) after false assumption(martyrs≠ those who came from great trib) and conclude pretrib. 

There are other more plausible explanations. I get that you know what YOU know. That may or may not be accurate.

Those beheaded for Jesus and the refusal to take the mark could very well be in the same group as all martyrs, since logically those who die for Jesus in any manner are martyrs for Jesus. A subset would include those who were beheaded for Jesus and their refusa to worship the beast or his image. In fact no one, including you, can say that only some were beheaded for Jesus when the sentence for refusal to worship the beast or his image could very well be beheading, for all of them! Or us, as the case may be.

I am correct and you are incorrect. There of course is a Church Age, and a Rapture of the Church pre 70th week. The MATH PROVES ME RIGHT. The rest is just not worth discussing tbh, when you can't overcome factual math brother, you might as well give up the ghost. I am not gong to debate 2 + 2 = 4 with anyone. I teach it, but I will not debate the factoids of the mathematical equation, of course, now if it was some algebra problem, we might could debate it, but this is simple math, tbh.

They ARE the Martyrs, that's the whole point, they are judged AFTER Jesus' return to earth, thus they can't be seen in Rev. 7:9-17 and thus those in Rev. 7:9-17 are the same ones seen in Rev. 5:9 who are in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are even opened. 

It doesn't matter if you are beheaded but BELIVED in Allah, they are therefore not Martyrs. And the PROSE doesn't mean the Martyrs were BEHEADED, it simply means KILLED, they might be beheaded, but I imagine its just John's way of saying they are Martyrs. 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

5th Seal:

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and TRUE, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

No. This does not forbid or demand these arrive from any time/space moment. I would say they can only come from the 70th week, and some dire crisis within that time since we are in the context of the 70th week in the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ!

Rev 20:4:

"4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

No, neither does this say they CANNOT come from the 70th week. 

I'll grant you the accuracy of your position but you are not proving it using the above references. You argue from authority and silence often, as in this example. It's unbecoming, and you're way smarter than that.

Of course it does, "WHAT SEASON" do you think Jesus is speaking about? The Anti-Christs 42 month reign, which I show above is EASILY RECOGNIIZED as 42-months. This DEMANDS that all those in this "SEASON" of the Anti-Christ has to WAIT until his "SEASON" is over with. That is why we see them JUDGED in Rev. 20:4 AFTER the Second Coming, and thus they CAN NOT be the Saints seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17. You are kicking against the sharp points time and again brother, no need to do that. 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Truth. But since it not specified here that the tribulation in question is 'great tribulation that never was and never shall be again and this great tribulation had to be cut short or no flesh would be saved', Jesus is not speaking to the same tribulation in either scope, longevity, or severity. You are trying to get us to believe that 2000 years, or all time, is equivalent to the GT Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 when that same GT is likened to be worse than the great flood which killed everyone but 8 people. Balderdash!

It doesn't have to be specified, that is why God gave us an intellectual mind, to figure out problems. If I am given an equation to solve and 5 answers, the one that doesn't add up has to be taken out of the mix until you find one that does add up. If you have 4 that doesn't add up, you already know the 5th one has to be correct before you start solving the last equation. But you then need to add it up/solve the equation. 

John does call it the the Great Tribulation, we can't demand he can only call ONE THING as Great, that is an adverb that can be used in many ways. Again, the 70th week will not be cut short, what Jesus us saying is tat "70TH WEEK" would have or could have been 30 years instead of 7, but I prophesied long ago that this TYRANT would only rule for 42 months. Thus he cut the TROUBLES SHORT. In that instance Jesus is speaking about the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES that will last 42 months, in John's case he is speaking about the Greatest Period of tribulation, the 2000 some odd year Church Age.

The point is, I don't limit what others can DESCRIBE as Great, you do. John's Tribulation period is the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period which indeed is GREATER than the 70th week period. 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

A scarecrow in search of a wizard.

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Dodgeball is fun, but in this case it shows one has no true rebut.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

But it's not the beast's reign that is cut short as  have iterated again and again; it's the days of GT that are cut short for the sake of the elect. I have never said the reign of the beast is stopped short of the prophetic requirement. 

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Who do you think is bringing these GREATEST EVER TROUBLES? The Elect are the Israelites hiding in the Wilderness for 1260 days, thus God stops the tyrant who would eventually kill all mankind if he was left to do as he pleased, which is why God SUPERNATURALLY Protects the Elect Jews, but not the Remnant Gentile Church, who are the Martyrs under the 5th altar. Jesus has to reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years, and God has to keep the Promise that He made to Abraham, so God protects those Jews who became ELECT when they accepted Jesus Christ and rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Bah. This mishmash of terms is unsightly at best. The 70th week ≠ tribulation ≠ the beasts reign in the context of the end of the age. Let me clue you in here. The 70th week is the set of days, the beast's reign is a subset of days within the 70th week and, GT is a subset of days within both the reign of the beast and the 70th week. 

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Church Age............Raptuure....................then...........

The 70th Week followed by.......................................

The Wrath of God which the Anti-Christ CLOAKS himself in as he GOES FORTH Conquering on the exact same day that God's Wrath starts. The Anti-Christ uses this chaos to cloak his agenda in, while everyone is watching the Asteroid Strike Events in the USA, the Pacific Ocean and the Americas, he thus uses that as subterfuge, he goes forth conquering, knowing the USA is pretty much wiped out, and of course all the Christians died 3.5 years earlier of what he calls some "DISEASE'. They all died at the same time of course, because it was the Rapture of the Church in reality. 

So, the 70th week and the Greatest Ever Troubles that come via both God's Wrath on mankind AND the Beasts tyrannical ways, both run for the exact same 42 month time period.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Well then consider the problem solved if GT falls under the reign of the beast and it's the length of days of GT that is cut short and not the reign of the beast. As in, the beast begins to reign and GT begins, Jesus arrives to cut short the days of GT, not the days of the beast, and the beast continues to rule till the end of his allotted time under the pressure of the wrath of the Lamb.

They are ONE IN THE SAME. Troubles are TROUBLES right? God's Wrath AND the Beasts TYRANNYY = Great Troubles.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Cite the scripture showing the duration of the wrath of God.

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Rev. 8 shows it to be the SAME EVENT Prophesied in Joel 2:31 and via the 6th Seal. In Rev. 7 we see the 5 million Jews fleeing Judea which we know happens at the 1290 event. Thus the Jews are Conquered for 1260 days and flee from the face of the Beast. Tus God's Wrath and the Anti-Christs TROUBLES both start on day 1260. Satan is even cast down and chases Israel on this day. 

Rev. 18 tells us this Wrath lasts 42 months, if one LISTENS to the coded info.

 

Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

This EVIL Worlds Judgments is come in 42-months.

ONE DAY = 42 Months...............AND............ONE HOUR = 42 Months, see below.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast.

The Wrath of God AGAINST Babylon (World) last ONE HOUR (42 Months), just like the Beasts reign. These clues are there for all to see brother, they just have to be dug out by a mind that puts off Men's Traditions, that is what I had to do m5 or 6 years ago God can't teach us what we already (THINK WE) know. It blocks Him from being able to teach us. I can guarantee you if I brainwash a guy into thinking that 2 + 2 = 3, then any teacher that comes along will have a challenge reaching him, because he's already programed to think 2 plus 2 = 3.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Read the whole chapter. Joel is describing the nearness of the day of the Lord. The first and third trumps have sounded before that around the time of the A of D; per Joel 2.

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Go look up the Hebrew word. It means FACE..........as IN THE PRESENCE (STANDING BEFORE) of the DOTL.

On 11/28/2020 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

I guarantee you I have said that since the beginning. What you miss is that GT is only WITHIN that 42 months and is cut short.

The TROUBLES are stopped by the Second Coming Brother.

God Bless. Happy Holidays.

[kenny2212]

I don't have any answers

[kenny2212]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

And the answers to my inquiries?

I don't have any answers

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

I hope it is rested acknowledging what the text actually states and not what folks make it say.

 

If I may digress for a moment... 

1) How familiar are you with the "rules" of exegesis?

2) To what degree do you believe it is important (and necessary) to read scripture literally (as stated) unless there's something in the surrounding text indicating we should do otherwise?

3) From where did the idea the 144,000 are Jews come for you? (If a person or a book or video I'd like to know)

 

 

.

 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed  the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I wonder if there is some rule of exegesis that says, "Only one adjective can be applied at a time."?

What we see is a group of 144,000 bondservants that come from the 12 tribes of Israel sealed in their foreheads in Ch. 7. Then we see 144,000 with the seal of God in their foreheads in Ch, 14. 

That's two salient similarities that cannot be ignored. 

If I were a detective I'd be going with clear similarities to solve my case.

So in answer to the 2nd query: It's vital. Like the breath of life.

The 3rd is answered here: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Less Jews than Israelites if one were to wax pedantic. Perhaps 'Jews" is a misnomer here. However, there is a long history of the nation of Israel being called Jews so I just ignore it.

The apostles were Jews of the nation of Israel and of the several tribes of the nation of Israel. Pretty sure interchangeability of nouns in this case is appropriate and doesn't at all cast a pall over understanding or truth.

 

 

[JoeCanada]

 

" I remembered the Holy Spirit told me the reason I couldn't solve all these issues and learn these things in full, was because of Men's Traditions, so I said to myself, let me relook at this with an OPEN MIND" ....... ( a quote of Revman's)

 

Hi Revman,

This is a great start, one that we should all try and do from time to time. Men's traditions will surely lead us down wrong paths.....................................

And we should " relook at this with an OPEN MIND"...........

To "look at things with an open mind" is to put aside all previously held beliefs and start fresh and "see with eyes that are open" what the Holy Spirit is really trying to teach us.

On 11/28/2020 at 1:00 AM, Revelation Man said:

So I did, I knew they couldn't come out of the 70th week, so who were they? Well, I knew the Church was Raptured pre 70th week so they have to be the Church I told myself,

" So I did,"

Nope....you did NOT. Your very next words tells us so...."I knew they couldn't"

Preconceived notions.

Try again brother.......