Great tribulation

[Revelation Man]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:04 PM, JoeCanada said:

So I did,"

Nope....you did NOT. Your very next words tells us so...."I knew they couldn't"

Preconceived notions.

Try again brother.......

And if you read you can put all the facts together that I did........I stated I know because of the verses in the bible that say that those who are in the 70th week tribulation can not be Judged until AFTER Jesus' Second Advent has started. 

Its right there as lain as day in Rev. 20:4, ALL of those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are Judged AFTER Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and the Dragon. So, you are in error. 

Also, Rev. 6, the 5th Seal SPECIFICALLY STATES that those who die MUST WAIT, until all their fellow brothers die in just such manner as they died.

Now, the bible is not an errant book, so, you cant change these facts brother. And I will not even see you try, because you can't. You might as well learn to love it. You are going to be Raptured, even if its against your will. 

Now, since you stated, I DIDN'T and I proved I DID............Overcome those two verses I laid down, show me how you get those 70th week Martyrs to be SEEN in Rev. 7:9-17. You can't overcome those verses because thy are TRUTH Brother.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

I am of Israel; a Gentile convert grafted into the already-existing tree of Israel. To which "tribe" do I belong?

That's part of the mystery. It's not me. Our Father gave the Revelation to the Son who gave it to John. I just read and believe. Why it's important the 144,000 consist of 12,000  from each of the 12 tribes, I don't know. As far as I know the 12 tribes may not even know who they are; there may not exist any such record of lineage today.

So, if one is grafted in then that person could not be of the natural tree. You and I would not be able to trace lineage back to any people group in that case. So it's not us.

Who it is we cannot tell. That it is seems clear. We will find out given time.

[Diaste]

On 11/28/2020 at 4:01 PM, Josheb said:

Yes, it does. Those who are sealed are bondservants, and their number is 144,000. They are bondservants, not Jews. That's what the text states. This is not an addition or in any way and interpretation of what is stated. The text states they are bondservants. A bondservant is someone who incurred a debt and whose debt was purchased such that s/he must now work off that debt. Paul calls himself a bondservant at the beginning of his letters to the Romans, again at the beginning of his letter to the Philippians, and again at the beginning of his letter to Titus. James did the same with his epistle, and Peter did the same at the beginning of his second letter and Jude did the same at the beginning of his letter. Paul tells us in Philippians 2 that Christ himself took the form of a bondservant when being made in the likeness of men (vs. 2:7). The beginning of Revelation states, 

Revelation 1:1-3
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,  who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." 

The book of Revelation calls Moses a bondservant. It is true Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Titus and John were all Jewish but they were Jews of The Way; they were Christians. The 144,000 are bondservants. 

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
"Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?  For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." 

1 Corinthians 7:21-24
"Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.  For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.  You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.  Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called." 

Our debt was purchased by God with the blood of His Son at Calvary. We are God's bondservants. The 144,000 in question are converts to Christ.

 

Apologies if I seemed to ignore this; if these are the facts to which you refer left unaddressed.

I don't see anyone denying that the 144.000 are converts to Christ. But I think it goes to an even more fundamental condition than conversion. Conversion suggests a change from one state to another. In this case the assumption would be conversion from the flesh to the truth of the Spirit in the 'must be born again' concept.

I don't see that idea in the text regarding the 144,000. Not that such a conversion didn't occur but the text is silent. Where the text speaks we can know certain attributes of the 144,000 and make logical deductions. 

"These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins."

They are virgins not defiled with women. Pretty harsh but that's another topic. The fact they are virgins suggests to me they are young, preteen perhaps. We all understand virginity to be sexual purity and that is the case here; but they are not defiled either which suggests to me they have not been led astray by the opposite gender. True or not the fact is they are sexually pure and probably young.

"They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."

They are already redeemed and are firstfruits.  In this case 'redeemed' isn't the salvation from sin but the purchase. You probably already said that; apologies if I missed it. But the point is we don't see a conversion yet; even though it's obvious we are all purchased by the Blood of the Lamb. There is no other way for anyone to be translated in the Spirit. That remission of sin by the blood of the Lamb is ubiquitous so it doesn't stand out. Even the most heinous murderers sin is covered by the Blood.

"And no lie was found in their mouths; "

Interesting statement. One would hope that if they are with the Lamb standing on Mt. Zion they have no lie in their mouth. But the text doesn't say 'no lie' is a result of a conversion or redemption. It would be evident no lie was found in their mouth when in the company of the Lamb on Zion. This suggests the search for a lie or guile was carried out before they were chosen and sealed and no lie was found. Extraordinary!

"they are blameless."

Were they blameless based on virginity and veracity? None of the surrounding text suggests otherwise. I could be wrong here but I have to take the Word as written, especially in this book.  So it looks like the 144,000 may have walked in the very image and life of Christ while on earth and comported righteously their entire life.

Of course they are bondservants of Christ and in Christ by the Spirit. What is written in the Word about them is unique. They certainly aren't the same kind of bondservant as I am. 

And again, being a bondservant does not by nature remove origins, lineage or associations. Lineage is very important to our Father as evidenced by Matt 1.  Sure they are converts to Christ and in the Spirit all are one. There is no Jew or Gentile, I get that. How does that remove the fact the Word denotes from whence or where they cometh? I'm a convert from the USA. What's wrong with that?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

The op states, "We've been told in the bible that only the 144000 Jews (out of all Christians) remain here." It is not clear what "out of all Christians" means. If they are Christians then they are not Jews; there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. And my response was intended in part to address the commonly occurring claim in certain eschatologies that millions of Jews would/will be killed in the end times. I find this anti-Semitic, and I find most who assert that position are unaware of the implicit antisemitism. 

It's almost gotten to the point of sensory adaptation with me when I hear that sort of stuff like in the OP. I have heard it so much and it's just made up dogma. Nothing in the whole of scripture agrees with such a stance. As far as I'm concerned, scripture is quite clear, there is no difference in anyone across the earth in the Lord's eyes and He does not recognize temporal divisions and classes.

The only division consists of believer or nonbeliever. [I don't really like that description because it isn't accurate, but you get the idea.]

Millions of everyone will meet their destiny at the end of the age and from what I see it's nondiscriminatory. It's another discussion but within the overall scope there is Jerusalem and it's inhabitants and this creates a special case. Jerusalem is a focal point of the beast and the Lord at the end of the age. Maybe it's the prophecy of Jerusalem being a stumbling block that leads some to their personal dogma.

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

The NT uses the term "Israel" in at least two ways" 1) the the cultural or bloodline Jew and 2) those who live by faith in God and His resurrected Son. Not all Israel is Israel. Which is being asserted in Revelation? That might depend on how the audience mentioned at the beginning of the prophesy is interpreted: who are the "bondservants" to whom John is writing? Jews? Or Christians? 

Inherently stated context should not be ignored.

Totally agree. It seems there are quite a few that cannot discern this, "Not all Israel is Israel."

I would just say that I read it as John recording what is being said by others to others.

The ascending angel speaks to the angels restraining the wind at the cardinal points.

As I see it the sealing of the particular group isn't in the knowledge or consent of the ones being sealed but a spiritual action based on higher knowledge and purpose. A higher knowledge and purpose that is probably revealed only at the moment of visitation and sealing.

This sealing isn't contingent on temporal knowledge and is based on character not lineage. But apparently origins and lineage play a role and it's at least significant enough to record it. 

I agree they are bondservants first and foremost. The criteria isn't lineage it's purity and blamelessness; that purity and blamelessness just has to come from a designated place. 

So to stir this together with "Not all Israel is Israel" and the bondservant status of this group; the 144,000 are pure and blameless firstfruits to Christ and are of the Israel of God based on the Lord's required origins. I think this amounts to a reconciliation of all the facts about the group in question; imo.

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

As far as I'm concerned, scripture is quite clear, there is no difference in anyone across the earth in the Lord's eyes and He does not recognize temporal divisions and classes.

The only division consists of believer or nonbeliever.

I disagree in part. Spiritually, there is no difference in God's eyes, but most of mankind have never lived on that level. They live on the soul level; and

The soul of the flesh is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11

Blood-lines are soul-lines, and these determine nations. And God has specifically provided for them:

[God] has made from one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings.

When the Lord returns, "every eye will see Him," and so faith in He who has been unseen will end. Thereafter, the only relevant factor will be obedience (in He who was seen), both among individuals and nations. That is why, later on, He will divide the sheep nations from the goat nations.

So in reference to the 144,000, when it says they are from the 12 tribes of Israel, that must be taken literally, because these are only chosen and sealed AFTER the coming of the Lord for the ones who will be chosen and raptured because of their faith.

Edited December 6, 2020 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I disagree in part. Spiritually, there is no difference in God's eyes, but most of mankind have never lived on that level. They live on the soul level; and

The soul of the flesh is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11

Blood-lines are soul-lines, and these determine nations. And God has specifically provided for them:

[God] has made from one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings.

When the Lord returns, "every eye will see Him," and so faith in He who has been unseen will end. Thereafter, the only relevant factor will be obedience (in He who was seen), both among individuals and nations. That is why, later on, He will divide the sheep nations from the goat nations.

So in reference to the 144,000, when it says they are from the 12 tribes of Israel, that must be taken literally, because these are only chosen and sealed AFTER the coming of the Lord for the ones who will be chosen and raptured because of their faith.

I agree. I was making a point that was relevant in another context.

The 144,000 are indeed literal.

[JoeCanada]

On 11/29/2020 at 6:49 PM, Revelation Man said:

Church Age............Raptuure....................then...........

The 70th Week followed by.......................................

The Wrath of God which the Anti-Christ CLOAKS himself in as he GOES FORTH Conquering on the exact same day that God's Wrath starts. The Anti-Christ uses this chaos to cloak his agenda in, while everyone is watching the Asteroid Strike Events in the USA, the Pacific Ocean and the Americas, he thus uses that as subterfuge, he goes forth conquering, knowing the USA is pretty much wiped out, and of course all the Christians died 3.5 years earlier of what he calls some "DISEASE'. They all died at the same time of course, because it was the Rapture of the Church in reality. 

So, the 70th week and the Greatest Ever Troubles that come via both God's Wrath on mankind AND the Beasts tyrannical ways, both run for the exact same 42 month time period.

Hi Ron,

I sure do enjoy "story time" with Ron. 

Let's see if I got the story straight.....

First, there is  the 'Church age'.....then the rapture.....then the 70th week which starts the 'Wrath of God'.....then, on the same day that the 70th week begins which is when God's wrath begins, it is also the beginning of Satan's, what do you call it.....his conquering, which is 'cloaked'....and on the same day the 'asteroid' pretty much destroys the USA and the Americas....(is this Canada, Mexico, Central America and South America, as well as the Caribbean Islands?)......

ALL this at the start of the 70th week....

But.....and this is a BIG BUT....ALL the Christians died from some mysterious disease 3 1/2 years earlier ( is this 3 1/2 years BEFORE the start of the 70th week??? )....which is supposed to be the rapture....

And THEN............ you wrap it all up by concluding......

"So, the 70th week and the Greatest Ever Troubles that come via both God's Wrath on mankind AND the Beasts tyrannical ways, both run for the exact same 42 month time period."

But But But......But Ron, the 70th week is 84 months.....isn't it? 

And here is where we get to the 'mystery' of the story......

"Rev. 18 tells us this Wrath lasts 42 months, if one LISTENS to the coded info."

( coded info ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? )

"Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,"

"Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

"This EVIL Worlds Judgments is come in 42-months.

ONE DAY = 42 Months...............AND............ONE HOUR = 42 Months"

There we go......clear as mud!

"

On 11/29/2020 at 6:49 PM, Revelation Man said:

God can't teach us what we already (THINK WE) know

If you only believed this...............

[JoeCanada]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

And if you read you can put all the facts together that I did........I stated I know because of the verses in the bible that say that those who are in the 70th week tribulation can not be Judged until AFTER Jesus' Second Advent has started. 

Its right there as lain as day in Rev. 20:4, ALL of those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are Judged AFTER Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and the Dragon. So, you are in error. 

 

Hi Ron, 

Alright, let's try and sort this out.

First of all, you say...."I stated I know because of the verses in the bible that say that those who are in the 70th week tribulation can not be Judged until AFTER Jesus' Second Advent has started."

It sounds like you don't believe that Jesus' Second Coming (advent) begins when He comes in the clouds to welcome the resurrected and raptured believers to Himself?

Why is that?

His first Coming was quite complex.

Why do you think that His Second Coming is "simply" when He rides a white horse and defeats the nations....in Rev 19? 

Ok....Rev 20:4.....

 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of ^[a]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You said......"Its right there as lain as day in Rev. 20:4, ALL of those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are Judged AFTER Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and the Dragon."

It looks to me that those who were "judged" were resurrected to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ( It doesn't say they were judged, it just says they came to life and reigned with Christ )

Now....isn't that the promise that the church is given....that they will rule and reign with Christ..... 2 Tim 2:12..."If we endure, we shall also reign with Him"

Let's look at the rest of Rev 20: 5-6

" The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Now I'm pretty sure that this is a recap of an event that took place earlier in Revelation. This is the "FIRST RESURRECTION". This includes ALL the Old Testament Saints and ALL the New Testament Saints (believers)....the ENTIRE Bride of Christ. WE will be PRIESTS of God and of Christ and WE will REIGN with HIM for 1,000 years!

Not all of Revelation is chronological. 

 

[DeighAnn]

As we walk the earth today we see everyone walking around breathing and talking and laughing and all the rest.  

HOW MANY OF THOSE WE WALK THIS EARTH WITH RIGHT NOW ARE "ALIVE"?  

ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST.  

THE dead are walking around RIGHT NOW amongst us BECAUSE THEY have not been taught the TRUE Word of GOD.

SO THEY ARE DEAD, SPIRITUALY. 
Matthew 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


So here comes Christ, ON THE EARTH at that PRECISE MOMENT

are those who have NOT been deceived by Satan,  NO MARK/ALIVE 

AND

those who HAVE BEEN deceived by Satan, MARKED/DEAD.  

(TALK ABOUT A QUICK AND EASY JUDGMENT, although not easy execution)


WHY CAN'T THOSE MARKED/DEAD "LIVE" AGAIN FOR THE 1000 YEARS? 

BECAUSE TO RECEIVED "THEIR IMMORTALITY/ETERNAL "LIFE/live" THEY HAVE GOT TO BE TESTED WHEN SATAN IS LOOSED.  IF THEY PASS THEN, THEN THEY RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY, HENCE NO LONGER DEAD.  But live.


How fair would it be to all of Gods Children living on this earth who were never taught HIS TRUTH to just be sent to the lake of fire?  Shouldn't they, ALSO who were deceived through a lack of knowledge get the chance to live eternally with GOD?  

I am NOT saying that those who have "received" truth and STILL chose their own way will get "another" chance, but they might.  I don't know.  Those who "teach" but obviously were not called of God so reject the Truth and teach wisdom of man, well, I would hate to be one of them.   

[WilliamL]

On 12/6/2020 at 1:19 PM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect. In Revelation 7 Jesus is still sitting on the throne in heaven. Nothing in chapters 6, 7 or 8 say anything about Jesus having already come to earth. 

Rev. 6:16 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 18 For the great day of his wrath  came; and who shall be able to stand?

This is when the Lord comes "in the air" (1 Thes. 4:17) for the elect of His Church, when "every eye shall see Him." Rev. 1:7 The Church cannot be present during the Wrath of God:

1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...