Great tribulation

[WilliamL]

On 3/25/2021 at 7:32 AM, iamlamad said:

I believe the Isaiah 63 narrative will happen before Armegeddon or perhaps during.

It will happen before Armageddon; probably not long after the Rapture. By the time Jesus descends with the armies of heaven at Armageddon, he has already had his garments stained with blood. And he won't be alone, as he is in Isaiah 63. So that event takes place between the Rapture and the return to rule; which was the issue we were discussing.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It will happen before Armageddon; probably not long after the Rapture. By the time Jesus descends with the armies of heaven at Armageddon, he has already had his garments stained with blood. And he won't be alone, as he is in Isaiah 63. So that event takes place between the Rapture and the return to rule; which was the issue we were discussing.

Who's blood has stained His garments? He has just left heaven after the Marriage and supper. He has been in heaven since the pretrib rapture. Therefore, I suggest the blood is symbolic of HIS OWN blood by which we overcome.

Can you find one hint from Rev. 8 to Rev. 19 of Jesus leaven heaven and coming to earth to do battle? I cannot. I think Jesus remains in heaven for the entire 70th week.

[WilliamL]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I suggest the blood is symbolic of HIS OWN blood by which we overcome.

Can you find one hint from Rev. 8 to Rev. 19 of Jesus leaven heaven and coming to earth to do battle?

Your first statement is quite a stretch. Can YOU provide any hint how and why his own blood would have drenched his own garments? And why this description should be taken symbolically?

As to your question, not everything, by a longshot, of the events between the Rapture to heaven and the Return to earth is, or could be, itemized in Revelation.

[ENOCH2010]

The blood stains happen at  Edom/Bozrah  (sp?)

[iamlamad]

43 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Your first statement is quite a stretch. Can YOU provide any hint how and why his own blood would have drenched his own garments? And why this description should be taken symbolically?

As to your question, not everything, by a longshot, of the events between the Rapture to heaven and the Return to earth is, or could be, itemized in Revelation.

Many things in Revelation are symbolic. 

His eyes were as a flame of fire,                         It is symbolic

and on his head were many crowns;                   It is symbolic: there is only room for one

he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood  Why then wouldn't this also be symbolic?

out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword                 It is symbolic

 he shall rule them with a rod of iron                  It is symbolic

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath  It is symbolic. There is no real wine press.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Many things in Revelation are symbolic. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

And, many things in Revelation are NOT symbolic! Now, if the text SAYS that it's symbolic, that's okay. But, not everywhere does it admit to being symbolic!

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

His eyes were as a flame of fire,                         It is symbolic

Yes, this is symbolic because it says "AS" a flame of fire. When the text uses "like" or "as," it's a simile! Other times, a metaphor might be suggested in the text. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

and on his head were many crowns;                   It is symbolic: there is only room for one

This is talking about Yeshua` the King having MANY authorities! He will be a LITERAL "King of kings," after all! As a world-wide Emperor, He will be the BOSS over MANY rulers and authorities, represented by the "crowns."

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood  Why then wouldn't this also be symbolic?

It's not symbolic because He is prophesied to do JUST THAT!

Isaiah 63:1-7 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (deliver; rescue)!"

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (deliverance; rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth!"

7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD (Hebrew: chacdeey  YHWH = "[the] covenant-keeping-acts  of-YHWH"), and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses (Hebrew: chacaadow = "His-covenant-keeping-acts").

[Note: the "c" in my transliteration is a camekh which is a pinched "s" sound. Some people write the letter as "samekh," but the transliteration is like the "ç" with a tail in French as in the word "garçon."]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword                 It is symbolic

Perhaps, it is a BIT symbolic, but it's because He speaks a word and people DIE at His command!

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 he shall rule them with a rod of iron                  It is symbolic

This speaks about His unwillingness to bend to their wishes or excuses. It's a SCEPTER of iron!

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath  It is symbolic. There is no real wine press.

No? Look at verse 3 above! The whole valley in which He subdues this enemy is His "winepress!" It may not exactly be "literal," but it sure LOOKS THE SAME!

[Retrobyter]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:32 AM, iamlamad said:

I believe the Isaiah 63 narrative will happen before Armegeddon or perhaps during. He is GOD and can move at the speed of light. He could be in Bozrah one instant and be in Meggido in another.

 

As for Rev. 19:  " he was clothed with a vesture dipped [dyed, covered, soaked] in blood:"

I submit that this is HIS blood. His shed blood is how He became the King of Kings and gave Him the right to lead these armies of heaven.

Shalom, again, iamlamad.

No, Revelation 19 is QUOTING Isaiah 63 and Isaiah 34 and Jeremiah 49!

(Already quoted Isaiah 63.)

Isaiah 34:1-17 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 THEIR SLAIN ALSO SHALL BE CAST OUT, AND THEIR STINK SHALL COME UP OUT OF THEIR CARCASES, AND THE MOUNTAINS SHALL BE MELTED WITH THEIR BLOOD.

4 And all the host of heaven (the birds in the vicinity) shall be dissolved, and the heavens (skies) shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven (in the sky): behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in BOZRAH, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns (wild oxen) shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, AND THE YEAR OF RECOMPENCES FOR THE CONTROVERSY OF ZION.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch (tar), and the dust thereof into brimstone (sulfur), and the land thereof shall become burning pitch (molten tar).
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island (coast), and the satyr (jackal) shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Jeremiah 49:7-19 (KJV)

7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished? 8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him. 9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.

10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not. 11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me. 12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it. 13For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.

14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle. 15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. 16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

17 Also EDOM SHALL BE A DESOLATION: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. 19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

THIS WILL BE HIS FIRST STOP! In His zeal, He will THOROUGHLY DESTROY the land of Edom, particularly at Botsrah ("Bozrah")! No one will yet be with Him in His vengeance! They will follow later! This begins His campaign against those who came against Israel! Har Megiddown comes later!

Zechariah gives the order of events:

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (have a hernia), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Then, LATER we read:

Zechariah 14:1-11 (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Therefore, the towns of Yhudah (Judah) will be rescued first (after Botsrah is destroyed), and THEN the Messiah shall set foot on the Mount of Olives as the first event in the rescue of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!

When this entire CAMPAIGN is completed, THEN YHWH shall be King over all the earth! (vs. 9)

So, this campaign will TAKE TIME TO COMPLETE! He starts it alone, and later we join Him in the battle, not to participate in the fighting, but in the rescue and the deliverance of His people as HE does the fighting!

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, iamlamad.

No, Revelation 19 is QUOTING Isaiah 63 and Isaiah 34 and Jeremiah 49!

(Already quoted Isaiah 63.)

Isaiah 34:1-17 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 THEIR SLAIN ALSO SHALL BE CAST OUT, AND THEIR STINK SHALL COME UP OUT OF THEIR CARCASES, AND THE MOUNTAINS SHALL BE MELTED WITH THEIR BLOOD.

4 And all the host of heaven (the birds in the vicinity) shall be dissolved, and the heavens (skies) shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven (in the sky): behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in BOZRAH, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns (wild oxen) shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, AND THE YEAR OF RECOMPENCES FOR THE CONTROVERSY OF ZION.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch (tar), and the dust thereof into brimstone (sulfur), and the land thereof shall become burning pitch (molten tar).
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island (coast), and the satyr (jackal) shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Jeremiah 49:7-19 (KJV)

7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished? 8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him. 9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.

10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not. 11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me. 12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it. 13For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.

14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle. 15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. 16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

17 Also EDOM SHALL BE A DESOLATION: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. 19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

THIS WILL BE HIS FIRST STOP! In His zeal, He will THOROUGHLY DESTROY the land of Edom, particularly at Botsrah ("Bozrah")! No one will yet be with Him in His vengeance! They will follow later! This begins His campaign against those who came against Israel! Har Megiddown comes later!

Zechariah gives the order of events:

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (have a hernia), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Then, LATER we read:

Zechariah 14:1-11 (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Therefore, the towns of Yhudah (Judah) will be rescued first (after Botsrah is destroyed), and THEN the Messiah shall set foot on the Mount of Olives as the first event in the rescue of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!

When this entire CAMPAIGN is completed, THEN YHWH shall be King over all the earth! (vs. 9)

So, this campaign will TAKE TIME TO COMPLETE! He starts it alone, and later we join Him in the battle, not to participate in the fighting, but in the rescue and the deliverance of His people as HE does the fighting!

I agree with all those scriptures and probably with your order of events. However, John saw "" he was clothed with a vesture dipped [dyed, covered, soaked] in blood:"

The way John wrote it causes me to think this was as He was leaving heaven. 

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with all those scriptures and probably with your order of events. However, John saw "" he was clothed with a vesture dipped [dyed, covered, soaked] in blood:"

The way John wrote it causes me to think this was as He was leaving heaven. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I understand that you've taken Revelation 19 as though "He was leaving heaven." It's INEVITABLE given the teaching to which we are constantly subjected in certain settings. When I was growing up, there was no other way to see Revelation 19 because that's what I was TRAINED to see when I read Revelation 19. Even today, it's hard to see it any other way, even though I truly believe that it SHOULD be read differently!

There are things I have learned from the Scriptures and the definitions of certain words, like "heaven," that made it possible to see the bigger picture by looking at the topics more localized, instead of universal. Seeing shades of gray and even colors other than gray, rather than just black and white all the time! Seeing things in "black and white all the time" is called "dichotomous thinking," and it's NOT a good thing!

The Greek word "ouranos" that is translated as "heaven" in various versions of the English Bible simply means "the sky." But, let's look at Revelation 19:

Revelation 19:1-21 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Okay, now let's zero in on the first verse in the Greek:

1 Meta tauta eekousa hoos fooneen megaleen ochlou pollou en too ouranoo legontoon Halleelouia hee sooteeria kai hee doxa kai hee dunamis tou Theou heemoon,

1 Meta = 1 After
tauta = these-things
eekousa = I-heard
hoos = [something]-like
fooneen = a-voice
megaleen = loud
ochlou = of-a-multitude/crowd
pollou = much/many
en = in
too = the
ouranoo = sky
legontoon = they-cried,
Halleelouia = "Hallelujah!
hee = the
sooteeria = rescue/deliverance/salvation
kai = and
hee = the
doxa = glory/brightness
kai = and
hee = the
dunamis = power
tou = of-the
Theou = God
heemoon," = of-us,"

Now, the only Greek word in the accusative case is "fooneen" Thus, what he heard was "a loud voice!" The words that translate to "of-a-crowd of-many" are both in the genitive case (and they're singular in number). Thus, what is "in the sky" is not the "crowd of many" but the "VOICE!" And, "the sky" is in the locative case, for that is the case that the preposition "en" takes. The whole phrase "en too ouranoo" is in the locative case for the sentence, showing "WHERE" he heard the voice.

The point is, it was not the crowd that was "in the sky"; it was the LOUD VOICE that he heard that was LIKE that of a "crowd of many" that was "in the sky!" They were NOT off in some ethereal "Heaven!"

That's the FIRST point. There are several that one must string together for this chapter to make sense. Ponder on that one for a while; then, we'll tackle some of the others.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I understand that you've taken Revelation 19 as though "He was leaving heaven." It's INEVITABLE given the teaching to which we are constantly subjected in certain settings. When I was growing up, there was no other way to see Revelation 19 because that's what I was TRAINED to see when I read Revelation 19. Even today, it's hard to see it any other way, even though I truly believe that it SHOULD be read differently!

There are things I have learned from the Scriptures and the definitions of certain words, like "heaven," that made it possible to see the bigger picture by looking at the topics more localized, instead of universal. Seeing shades of gray and even colors other than gray, rather than just black and white all the time! Seeing things in "black and white all the time" is called "dichotomous thinking," and it's NOT a good thing!

The Greek word "ouranos" that is translated as "heaven" in various versions of the English Bible simply means "the sky." But, let's look at Revelation 19:

Revelation 19:1-21 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Okay, now let's zero in on the first verse in the Greek:

1 Meta tauta eekousa hoos fooneen megaleen ochlou pollou en too ouranoo legontoon Halleelouia hee sooteeria kai hee doxa kai hee dunamis tou Theou heemoon,

1 Meta = 1 After
tauta = these-things
eekousa = I-heard
hoos = [something]-like
fooneen = a-voice
megaleen = loud
ochlou = of-a-multitude/crowd
pollou = much/many
en = in
too = the
ouranoo = sky
legontoon = they-cried,
Halleelouia = "Hallelujah!
hee = the
sooteeria = rescue/deliverance/salvation
kai = and
hee = the
doxa = glory/brightness
kai = and
hee = the
dunamis = power
tou = of-the
Theou = God
heemoon," = of-us,"

Now, the only Greek word in the accusative case is "fooneen" Thus, what he heard was "a loud voice!" The words that translate to "of-a-crowd of-many" are both in the genitive case (and they're singular in number). Thus, what is "in the sky" is not the "crowd of many" but the "VOICE!" And, "the sky" is in the locative case, for that is the case that the preposition "en" takes. The whole phrase "en too ouranoo" is in the locative case for the sentence, showing "WHERE" he heard the voice.

The point is, it was not the crowd that was "in the sky"; it was the LOUD VOICE that he heard that was LIKE that of a "crowd of many" that was "in the sky!" They were NOT off in some ethereal "Heaven!"

That's the FIRST point. There are several that one must string together for this chapter to make sense. Ponder on that one for a while; then, we'll tackle some of the others.

It seems you think God and His throne just floats "in the sky" and perhaps on a cloud. Sorry, I don't think that. Everything we read in Scripture tells us the throne of God is in a PLACE, and that place NOT being "the sky."

Isaiah 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

Revelation 7:15
For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Revelation 14:17
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.

Note, There is a TEMPLE. The throne of God is in a TEMPLE.  Where is this temple? It is in a city. Where is this city of God? From many who have been there and seen it tell us the temple is on a PLANET. It is a planet with mountains and rivers quite like earth. 

It seems you choose to ignore Strong's second definition of ouranos :

the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Note: "Where God Dwells."

So is God floating on a cloud out in the ouranos? I doubt it.