The Great Tribulation is no purgatory for the church / Foolish virgins scream......(scary stuff)

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 and the flood came and took them all away! Were were they taken to? Thier destruction, not to safety. Noah and his family stayed on the boat and were safe.

I can also say the vessel took Noah to safety. Cant i ? So Noah was taken to safety first.

Edited December 17, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

No, because I am not appointed unto wrath, but to salvation, like the Bible says. Terror came upon Egypt, while the Hebrews were protected. Lot was safe from fire and brimstone, he fled the scene, but did not leave the earth. Noah, we just went trough, this is not uncommon that God protects His people, without rapturing them.

Similarly, God has allow prophets, and Christian martyrs to suffer horribly, and the hands of evil people, but you expect Him to change for on generation of believers. I thought you were the one who was accusing God of being unfair, do you not think it is unfair to that He allows His people to suffer in the past and in the present, but to make an exception for a few people in the future? I think that is very inconsistant, and not facing the texts that you know are there, that describes future suffering.

It is the calling of the church to suffer for His sake when necessary. We are not suppose to fear those who can kill the body, but not the soul. (Matt 10:28
We are supposed count it all joy when faced with various troubles. James 1:2
Joyful are Christians when they are counted worthy to suffer for Him. Persecution builds character, strengthens the church, purifies it. Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Luke 6:22. 

However, since the early 1800s, the thought has grown in the church, flourished in the 20th century and continues today, that we no longer want to be happy and content with what God has for us. We say to God: "No thanks Lord, I want to do it my way, not your way, I want blessings and comfort in this life, I do not want to wait for eternity".

"And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

The way we are going, that is a legitimate question!

Are you planning to ever yield to the texts, or will you persist in making God a prisoner of what you wish for? All I see is stubborness. I can remember when I was a pre-tribber also, believe me, it does not hurt to submit to God and His word!

John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude of Rev 7 n the souls of martyrs under the Altar, which one do you think you will be placed.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Only the unbelievers will go into the 7 year tribulation. The true born again Christians will be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

Ok. Then what of the group that, "...came out of great tribulation..." that are pictured in heaven standing before the throne have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb?

They are true believers that were in the GT. How is that possible?

[Uriah]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:29 PM, R. Hartono said:

God will serve the world with wormwood coffee, this is the test for the world in great tribulation, not for the church.

Rev 3:10 clearly says God will save us from the time of trial to test the inhabitants of the world.

Chriatians were persecuted since early church with the first martyr was Stephen killed by the Jews in a synagogue, christians were fed to lions by the Roman in front of spectators, the church in Smyrna was tested as martyrs, christians martyrs died from time to time until now in radical nations, recently four christians in Sulawesi island, Indonesia were murdered by radical muslims, they dont wait until the great tribulation to be tested, what a nonsense, God will resurrect these martyrs be4 the great tribulation n rapture them with the living saints, thats the Harvest and the world left behind will be annihilated by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets n 7 vials of God wrath. 

The saints are taken as the Great Multitude of Rev 7, There is no purgatory for them in great tribulation, all hv been tested n proven worthy until the rapture of wise virgins who keep the oil burning.

Christians dont hv to wait for the great tribulation to be tested, they can also become martyrs anytime now, be4 the great tribulation totally destroy this present unGodly world. As the GT is not meant as purgatory to test christians but its meant to annihilate unGodly mankind be4 the Millennium of Christ begins.

Rev. 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (same Greek word used twice)

As you can see from the context, Jesus isn't talking about keeping people out of the tribulation as pre trib believers errantly read this. "Keep" means to "preserve" as some translations show it. He commends people in this verse for "maintaining" His command-not avoiding it. 

...and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them...

[R. Hartono]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev. 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (same Greek word used twice)

As you can see from the context, Jesus isn't talking about keeping people out of the tribulation as pre trib believers errantly read this. "Keep" means to "preserve" as some translations show it. He commends people in this verse for "maintaining" His command-not avoiding it. 

...and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them...

Read Rev 7 abt the Great Multitude who came out of the tribulation bro.

[Omegaman 3.0]

22 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude of Rev 7 n the souls of martyrs under the Altar, which one do you think you will be placed.

I have no idea, I do not care, it is God's business. On the one hand though:

9After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 

I could fit that description. However, the test also says:

13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. 

That appears to be spoken of that same group. I doubt that I will be blessed enough to be in the Great Tribulation, so I doubt that is my group.

As I said, the text indicates this to be one group. Perhaps I expect to be in a group not mentioned in Rev 7, the dead in Christ who are resurrected after the tribulation before the rapture, that I already addressed in a previous post. I expect to be in the first resurrection. Not an issue as long as I get their eventually.

 

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Read Rev 7 abt the Great Multitude who came out of the tribulation bro.

It shows Christians in the great tribulation, proving the post trib rapture/resurrection. ( Rev. 20) What point are you making?

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

It shows Christians in the great tribulation, proving the post trib rapture/resurrection. ( Rev. 20) What point are you making?

Rev 7 shows great multitude who came out of tribulation by the rapture. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

57 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 7 shows great multitude who came out of tribulation by the rapture. 

 Well, Rev 20 shows martyrs who were killed in the great tribulation, so, they were in it, than came of of the tribulation. Look at chapter 6, the 5th seal:

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers^c should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Given white robs, just as the group in chapter 7, but the have to wait for the rest to be killed as they had been.

Then at the 6th seal:

12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 

The sun, moon, stars language, places that immediatly after the tribulation, just as Jesus said in Matt 24.

15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave^d and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

As you know, Christians are not subject to the wrath, but these these people obviously are.

Now, as we say in the Thessalonian passage about the resurrection of the dead and then the rapture of the living, that those people would be with the Lord forever. In as much as here Jesus is about to return, the raptured saints are with Him, since we were told that the resurrected and the raptured would join Jesus at that time forever.

Then on to you great multitude in chapter 7:

9After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Question, you said:

Quote

Rev 7 shows great multitude who came out of tribulation by the rapture. 

I have shown you several times in several passages where we can see the saints gathered to be with the Lord after the tribulation, you have not even bothered to refute that, so I assume that you accept that as true, good thing, since it is clear in the test. The question is, where in chapter 7 of Revelation, or any passage for that matter, is a pre-trib rapture mentioned.

I have been waiting 40 years for anyone to show us one, so far none have. The church has been waiting to see that since at least 1830! I think I will stay with what the church in general, all denominations until 1830 held, that the church will suffer under anti-Christ in the great tribulation. Possibly millions of us have been wrong for centuries, if we are, please show us from scripture where we are mistaken.

Saying "Rev 7 shows great multitude who came out of tribulation by the rapture. " does not make it so. Saying "oh, these are not the church, these are the resurrection saints" does not make it so. Saying "in the rapture, the church goes up to meet Jesus in the air, and in the 2nd coming, the return of Christ, Jesus brings the saints with Him", does not make that true either, though the second half is right, so pre-tribbers are half right, at least they get credit for that much.

About the notion of a pre-trib rapture that you say will happen, it is not what you or I say that matters, what does the Bible say? That is what matters. 

Here is a good place to show the 13 things pre-tribbers say, which the Bible does not say.

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. (See Matt 24:21 & Rev 7:14)

 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is missing from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

 10. The Bible does not say the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. (Titus 2:13) 

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus will return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. Those definitions may be workable, however the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 Well, Rev 20 shows martyrs who were killed in the great tribulation, so, they were in it, than came of of the tribulation. Look at chapter 6, the 5th seal:

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers^c should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Given white robs, just as the group in chapter 7, but the have to wait for the rest to be killed as they had been.

Then at the 6th seal:

12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 

The sun, moon, stars language, places that immediatly after the tribulation, just as Jesus said in Matt 24.

15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave^d and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

As you know, Christians are not subject to the wrath, but these these people obviously are.

Now, as we say in the Thessalonian passage about the resurrection of the dead and then the rapture of the living, that those people would be with the Lord forever. In as much as here Jesus is about to return, the raptured saints are with Him, since we were told that the resurrected and the raptured would join Jesus at that time forever.

Then on to you great multitude in chapter 7:

9After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Question, you said:

I have shown you several times in several passages where we can see the saints gathered to be with the Lord after the tribulation, you have not even bothered to refute that, so I assume that you accept that as true, good thing, since it is clear in the test. The question is, where in chapter 7 of Revelation, or any passage for that matter, is a pre-trib rapture mentioned.

I have been waiting 40 years for anyone to show us one, so far none have. The church has been waiting to see that since at least 1830! I think I will stay with what the church in general, all denominations until 1830 held, that the church will suffer under anti-Christ in the great tribulation. Possibly millions of us have been wrong for centuries, if we are, please show us from scripture where we are mistaken.

Saying "Rev 7 shows great multitude who came out of tribulation by the rapture. " does not make it so. Saying "oh, these are not the church, these are the resurrection saints" does not make it so. Saying "in the rapture, the church goes up to meet Jesus in the air, and in the 2nd coming, the return of Christ, Jesus brings the saints with Him", does not make that true either, though the second half is right, so pre-tribbers are half right, at least they get credit for that much.

About the notion of a pre-trib rapture that you say will happen, it is not what you or I say that matters, what does the Bible say? That is what matters. 

Here is a good place to show the 13 things pre-tribbers say, which the Bible does not say.

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. (See Matt 24:21 & Rev 7:14)

 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is missing from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church.

 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.

 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.

 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church.

 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death.

 10. The Bible does not say the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. (Titus 2:13) 

11. The Bible does not say that Jesus will return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.

 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. Those definitions may be workable, however the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.

 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Reading your posts, you are ALL OVER the answer, then miss it by a hair. You even answer the main question about the Pre Trib Rapture query, but then don't quite seem to see it hat way.

We see the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened (Rev. 5:9). Yo point out Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 show that the Saints whom die at that time have to wait until all the rest have died in like manner, and you insinuate (truthfully) that the Rev. 20 Saints will be judged after Jesus returns. So, you get all of this basically 100 percent right, yet you still do not see the pre trib rapture. 

So, how can those in Rev. 7:9-17 have come out of the Great Tribulation? Because the word "TRIBULATION" has been pigeonholed, many people do not understand that the "GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD" John is speaking of here is the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation. Lets test this.

1.) Did Jesus tell us in John's Gospel that we would live in "CONTINUAL TRIBULATION? Yes, indeed he did, so ALL TIME is Tribulation on earth for us.

2.) Did large numbers of Christians die during the 2000 some odd year Church Age between Jesus death and Rev. 7:9-17? Yes indeed, many MILLIONS DIED.

3.) Is 2000 (Church Age) GREATER than 7 (70th week) ? Yes indeed.

So, you answer every question right, but then you look past the obvious brother. Those seen in Rev. 7 are the Church Age Christians who were Raptured Pre 70th week, Paul told us it was a MYSTERY (Secret b Gods Silence) so why would one look for it in scriptures? Only Paul speaks of it in the open, other Scriptures HINT of it vaguely, thus you have to dog the truths about it out like in Matt. 24:36-51, ONE is TAKEN and ONE is LEFT.

Alright, now my midnight remodel of the kitchen begins, I have to be finished by Christmas Eve. Honey do lists are more like ORDERS. LOL.

God Bless all happy Christmas.

P.S. Those Martyrs seen in Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 are people who come to Christ after the Rapture. So, you see, BOTH Rev. 7:9-17 and the 5th Seal Saints and Rev. 20:4 Saints are explained this way, nothing else can explain BOTH scripture but the Pre Trib Rapture FOLLOWED by new converts AFTER the Rapture.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Revelation Man