Let's get down to it, the Nitty Gritty

[Kabowd]

Yes, we're all ignorant so show us some grace

[Ovedya]

Because Christ is my Passover; He is my Sabbath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since most have voted with Ovedya answer I will quote from his post but ask you all.

Is Shabbat (the Sabbath ) only mean a rest to you?

If Yeshua is your rest then what of the 1,000 year Sabbath?

So how can our Messiah be a day, an anniversary of his own creation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are speaking literally. I am speaking spiritually.

But since you mention it, the Lord Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation, and the last Adam. What did God do after he created the first Adam? He rested from all of His creation. God's new creation is in Christ, therefore God's rest and good pleasure is in His sacrifice upon the cross. All the Christ has attained and obtained in His incarnation, human living, death, and resurrection has been made available to me in spirit, by the Spirit.

[Guest yod]

Because Christ is my Passover; He is my Sabbath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That about sums it up.

And Yod, certainly takes a big man to make such an accusation. Of the two of us, who comes from a truly Jewish background.

Now, wanna tell me I don't understand the question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, I think you read something into my reply which wasn't intended. I'm trying to explain to Z why this is going to be a fruitless debate.

Zayit understands what I'm saying....and I understand what she's saying....but we're misunderstood by the body at large because we read the Bible in a hebraic context (because it was written by hebrews) and most christians are reading with a hellenistic lense through an anti-semetic institutional church which controlled the debate for the last 1900 years.

And you know that it is entirely possible to be hellenistic regardless of race.

Everyone does seem to be avoiding the real question she is asking though

When did God change His mind about what is called HIS Sabbath?

Since it is mentioned in the prophets as CLEARLY being observed by the entire planet in the future then my follow-up question is "When do you think it will be reinstituted if it has ended for now?"

I would respect an honest answer of something like "I don't think it's important" or "Who cares?" or "I don't want to"

Going to church on Sunday says that you do believe the Sabbath is still a commandment so the next question is why honor the Lord with Sunday instead of Sabbath?

There have been a few lame answers using junk scholarship to that one.

Frankly? I don't care to debate it anymore. It's mishagas trying to explain it to folks who don't want to know.

[apothanein kerdos]

First of all, I think you read something into my reply which wasn't intended. I'm trying to explain to Z why this is going to be a fruitless debate.

Zayit understands what I'm saying....and I understand what she's saying....but we're misunderstood by the body at large because we read the Bible in a hebraic context (because it was written by hebrews) and most christians are reading with a hellenistic lense through an anti-semetic institutional church which controlled the debate for the last 1900 years.

And you know that it is entirely possible to be hellenistic regardless of race.

I learned Jesus was the Sabbath through my grandfather who was a former canter in Temple. He did not abandon the traditions or customs, yet upon study of the New Testament, through a conservative Jewish mind, he even came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Sabbath.

SO keep your judgement to yourself Yod, you've overstepped yourself on this one.

[Guest yod]

First of all, I think you read something into my reply which wasn't intended. I'm trying to explain to Z why this is going to be a fruitless debate.

Zayit understands what I'm saying....and I understand what she's saying....but we're misunderstood by the body at large because we read the Bible in a hebraic context (because it was written by hebrews) and most christians are reading with a hellenistic lense through an anti-semetic institutional church which controlled the debate for the last 1900 years.

And you know that it is entirely possible to be hellenistic regardless of race.

I learned Jesus was the Sabbath through my grandfather who was a former canter in Temple. He did not abandon the traditions or customs, yet upon study of the New Testament, through a conservative Jewish mind, he even came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Sabbath.

SO keep your judgement to yourself Yod, you've overstepped yourself on this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know that there are more levels of understanding the Sabbath than one.

You are only answering one aspect of it, the mystical. As you certainly must know, all interpretation must be based on the literal intent of the author. Do you believe that the passage you refer to in Hebrews is advocating for an end to a weekly Sabbath or is it expanding on a deeper significance of Sabbath?

Why did you avoid the rest of that post?

[Gerioke]

Why do so many people equate the Sunday church service with the day of rest? I've seen discontent at church on numerous occassions. I would think that the most effective day of rest would be at home.

[Guest Zayit]

Zayit, I gave you the real down and dirty answer.  I consider my walk with Jesus Christ to be the Sabbath.  The Sabbath is made for a rest for us and Jesus is my rest.  The Holy Spirit that He ask the Father to send dwells within me and I am in constant contact with them on a minute by minute basis every day.

Jesus violated the Sabbath Laws when he was here by his own admission so I think it is safe to say that He doesn't expect me to follow them either.

I have read all your posts and I just disagree that we are obligated to any old testament laws including the ten commandments, because He combined nine of the ten in the two commandments that he gave to us, and He himself violated the other.  There are the don't eat blood and keep ourselves from sexual sins and the other two, but those are covered in the New Testament...

I don't understand what else you expect me to say, and asking me more questions will not get any different answers......

se

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe I should have made a poll but I didn't want to unduly influence anyones answer by giving some. I understand other one that you believe that the Sabbath was made as a rest for you, thank you for responding. I'll take up the question of weither or not Yeshua is a sinner in another thread.

[other one]

I thought that might get your attention....

[Guest Zayit]

That you don't want to keep the true Sabbath?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just wondering..is this topic posted in order to better understand others and inquisitive in nature? Or is it to bait others for the purpose of condemning them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tess, I have no power to condemn anyone. And with all the Sabbath threads going around I already know that there are only a samll handfull that do believe as I do so I already know that. I truly have asked this to understand, I myself wasn't always observant of the Shabbat and for many reasons which the L-RD worked with me on , and I am just wondering what each person has as their reason why they don't keep G-ds Holy Sabbath day. I did not mention about how, so I don't know how the legalities got into this discussion, but I am very curious as to what each individual thinks themselves on this.

There are a variety of reasons why but I don't want to list them until more have responded.

[Guest Zayit]

Because Christ is my Passover; He is my Sabbath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since most have voted with Ovedya answer I will quote from his post but ask you all.

Is Shabbat (the Sabbath ) only mean a rest to you?

If Yeshua is your rest then what of the 1,000 year Sabbath?

So how can our Messiah be a day, an anniversary of his own creation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are speaking literally. I am speaking spiritually.

But since you mention it, the Lord Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation, and the last Adam. What did God do after he created the first Adam? He rested from all of His creation. God's new creation is in Christ, therefore God's rest and good pleasure is in His sacrifice upon the cross. All the Christ has attained and obtained in His incarnation, human living, death, and resurrection has been made available to me in spirit, by the Spirit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Ovedya, that is a very thought provoking answer. I do understand where you are coming from, and indeed we are Spirit born, but let me ask does that allow us to neglect that we are still on this earth as a witness in bodily form, a witness to the unsaved, the ungodly, the unbelieving?