Can the definition of a soul found in Genesis 2:7 maintain its integrity throughout the Scriptures?

[David1701]

21 hours ago, suzan344 said:

Yes, as I first said, this is all a mystery.  I understand it is finalized in people's minds that the dust referenced in Genesis 2:7 is the dust of earth itself.

But, the term 'dust' also means fields.  Funny how we have term called 'particle fields'.  

I could go further and state you have to look at context of this verse as well.  Where exactly was God when he made Adam?  In Heaven or standing on the surface on the earth itelf?  I mean we assume he means dust on earth itself, but again if God is in Heaven, it could be dust from someplace there as well.

I always felt the garden of Eden's location was somewhere in 3rd Heaven and not on earth.  Perhaps Adam is made of 'dust' from the location of the garden of Eden and not from earth itself.

If the ancients had no words for particle matter, they would choose commonly used earth words to spell out what occurred way back then, in Heaven and on earth, so we would never actually know what type of 'dust' is being referenced in Genesis 2:7 for sure, ie. cosmic dust or earthly dust.

This is why I refer to it as a mystery because we can't be sure of  what 'dust' actually means here in Genesis 2:7 where every single verse in Chapters one and two are speaking about the formation from Heaven itself of the creation of mankind and earth from perhaps particle matter formed by God's word. 

I mean we don't even know how God created earth let alone mankind let alone Adam.  We can only suppose at this juncture and not assume what 'dust' means.

Just saying, if you keep assuming Adam was origially made of flesh and blood, that sort of blows the entire concept, put forth through the whole Bible that physical bodies can not exist in Heaven only spiritual bodies like souls and human spirits can. 

Yes, there are references to some sort of form being given man in Heaven, but it is never spelled out exactly what this form is made of other than it is 'new' and Christians believe they go to New earth anyway and not heaven (Rev. 21).

 

Dust of the earth means ... dust of the earth.  You need to stop contradicting what God's word says and spouting Gnostic nonsense!

[Guest kingdombrat]

20 hours ago, suzan344 said:

This one is also a mystery in my book.  Exactly what did God breathe into Adam and finally, was Adam already alive, as we term it, prior to having God's breath?

Recall, mankind was created without any need for God's breath in order to live.  Why then did Adam need it?

You feel it changed Adam so he could be in God's presence.  That is not very exact.  What about God's presence required such a change?

I think it means God gave part of himself to Adam so Adam could be immortal, for starters.  In other words, so Adam could be a bit like God.

What do I reference for this?  Well I looked for references to 'gift of life' and there are two regarding the gift of manna, one of which is in Revelations, the other was in the old testament (the story we all think we know).

I began with the idea some time ago that God did not actually give any actual human food to the Israelites while they were lost in the desert.  That in fact, the gift of manna from God was a long held secret by them and hence it was hidden what it actually was.

So pretending we don't know what manna actually was (I mean we think it was fungus), we can now look at what Revelations states it actually is.

Rev. 2:17

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it."

 

So in Revelations, God says those that enter New earth will get hidden manna.  Is this the same manna the Israelites received?  Does it mean gift of life?

How about gift of eternal life?

I could go even further and say why did God give it to those people in the desert to begin with?  My answer was he had to actually change their DNA.  Why?  Because up until that moment in time, God had no practical way to convince any people on earth to change their ways to such a point they became uncorruptable.  God literally changed their human spirit this way.  Or maybe, he actually gave them one even.

So when you say you want to understand Genesis @Charlie, well power to you.  Taken me 2 years to figure this much out and tons of prayer and research.  It is not obvious.

 

If I might ask, the views you behold your "Faith" to, are they your personal understanding of Scripture or are there Churches actually teaching these views?

[Frits]

To all my brothers and sisterters on Worthy:

Have a enjoyable and safe New Years!

Happy to be with you all, and God bless you!!

Frits, from the Netherlands.

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

Daniel and Paul both claimed knowledge would increase in the "Latter Days."   The views within this thread proves many are applying their understanding from knowledge gained.

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. [emphasis added].

This is such an interesting and telling verse. 

End: 7891 קֵץ (qēṣ): n.masc.; ≡ Str 7093;  end, finish, i.e., a point in time marking the completion of a duration (Ex 12:41); 2. end, limit, edge, boundary, border i.e., the distant end of a space or defined area, viewed by the subject. I might add, at the door!

Many running to and fro: just look at 100 years ago and compare to today [space travel, airliners, bumper to bumper traffic, etc.] Everyone is in such a hurry to get nowhere. For thousands of years, the fastest a human could travel, was 35 M.P.H. on horseback. 

Knowledge shall be increased: Besides the obvious medical, travel, computer, space, artificial intelligence (AI), etc. I think there's another and deeper meaning here. That Christian's will fully understand how close the Lord's return is. By seeing unfulfilled prophecy for our time shaping up and coming to fruition and expecting it. 

Paul writing pertaining to the Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians. 6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Knowledge: דַּעַת (dǎ·ʿǎṯ): n.fem. and masc. understanding, wisdom, i.e., a knowledge with focus on moral qualities and its application (Ge 2:9; Pr 2:5)

 

 

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. [emphasis added].

This is such an interesting and telling verse. 

End: 7891 קֵץ (qēṣ): n.masc.; ≡ Str 7093;  end, finish, i.e., a point in time marking the completion of a duration (Ex 12:41); 2. end, limit, edge, boundary, border i.e., the distant end of a space or defined area, viewed by the subject. I might add, at the door!

Many running to and fro: just look at 100 years ago and compare to today [space travel, airliners, bumper to bumper traffic, etc.] Everyone is in such a hurry to get nowhere. For thousands of years, the fastest a human could travel, was 35 M.P.H. on horseback. 

Knowledge shall be increased: Besides the obvious medical, travel, computer, space, artificial intelligence (AI), etc. I think there's another and deeper meaning here. That Christian's will fully understand how close the Lord's return is. By seeing unfulfilled prophecy for our time shaping up and coming to fruition and expecting it. 

Paul writing pertaining to the Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians. 6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Knowledge: דַּעַת (dǎ·ʿǎṯ): n.fem. and masc. understanding, wisdom, i.e., a knowledge with focus on moral qualities and its application (Ge 2:9; Pr 2:5)

 

 

Amen!

 

Being online exercises your mind by keeping it focused on the several pages of information its processing.   Eventually that helps your memory because you're learning to store knowledge while its alert and storing memory with knowledge.   We don't see these differences today because every human has this access.   But like you mentioned just 100 years ago...

[Frits]

On 12/31/2020 at 11:45 AM, Charlie744 said:

He was given a “spirit” (not Holy Spirit), breathed into him that would make him in His image and allow Adam to BE in HIS presence. 

Hi @Charlie744, I think I have one more thought for you:

Your comment, "this" breathing into Adam by God "could not be" just air ", I totally agree with that!  We may take the "air" that was blown into Adam by God literally, but at the same time it's an imagery.
"Air" is a metaphor for "spirit".
The "air" is invisible(!) and is necessary to keep the natural body alive. "Air" also portrays the invisible(!) reality of the spirit, that is necessary to keep the spiritual body alive.
When the spirit (represented by "air") leaves the body, the body is dead. (Jas.2:26)
The oxygen that animals breathe is also the oxygen that humans breathe, for all spirit is from God. (Heb.12:9) But the soul of Adam differs from that of the animals, because Adam on earth represented the position of ruler, just as his Father God in heaven is Ruler. The spirit that Adam had received that gave "life" to his soul, was the spirit of a king.
Adam did not lose this spirit in sinning, but he surrendered his royal rule to the devil! (Lk.4:6)
Adam received a spirit when he was created and kept it after the fall, this can be seen in the fact that only the spirit is able to BELIEVE.  Belief is a function of the spirit. Even the evil spirits have faith, and they tremble before the Lord Jesus. (Jas.2:19)
In Paradise the extraordinary spirit of Adam could put faith in the words of God, but he didn't.  Through his spirit Adam was able to draw near to God, and had Adam not fallen into sin, he even could have breathed the "air" of God's Spirit.
This "air" was pictured when the Lord Jesus blew on His followers.  The Apostles believed the Master's words and continued to expect the Holy Spirit.  On the day of Pentecost the house filled like the wind and they received God's Spirit.

God bless bro.

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi @Charlie744, I think I have one more thought for you:

Your comment, "this" breathing into Adam by God "could not be" just air ", I totally agree with that!  We may take the "air" that was blown into Adam by God literally, but at the same time it's an imagery.
"Air" is a metaphor for "spirit".
The "air" is invisible(!) and is necessary to keep the natural body alive. "Air" also portrays the invisible(!) reality of the spirit, that is necessary to keep the spiritual body alive.
When the spirit (represented by "air") leaves the body, the body is dead. (Jas.2:26)
The oxygen that animals breathe is also the oxygen that humans breathe, for all spirit is from God. (Heb.12:9) But the soul of Adam differs from that of the animals, because Adam on earth represented the position of ruler, just as his Father God in heaven is Ruler. The spirit that Adam had received that gave "life" to his soul, was the spirit of a king.
Adam did not lose this spirit in sinning, but he surrendered his royal rule to the devil! (Lk.4:6)
Adam received a spirit when he was created and kept it after the fall, this can be seen in the fact that only the spirit is able to BELIEVE.  Belief is a function of the spirit. Even the evil spirits have faith, and they tremble before the Lord Jesus. (Jas.2:19)
In Paradise the extraordinary spirit of Adam could put faith in the words of God, but he didn't.  Through his spirit Adam was able to draw near to God, and had Adam not fallen into sin, he even could have breathed the "air" of God's Spirit.
This "air" was pictured when the Lord Jesus blew on His followers.  The Apostles believed the Master's words and continued to expect the Holy Spirit.  On the day of Pentecost the house filled like the wind and they received God's Spirit.

God bless bro.

Very nice thoughts! I have no knowledge of Hebrew but for me this “air” is special. It is so much more than simple air! The “spirit” of God is sometimes mentioned as “wind”. 

He placed within us His Spirit which is not what all or any other creatures received- they were created and not breathed in by God. 

Personally, I believe Adam did have “this spirit” taken away or lost after the fall- which is why God breathed it back into His Apostles right before Pentecost and we must accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit as of Pentecost. 

Believers will once again have His Spirit within us. 

Enjoy your comments and have a great new year, Charlie 

[Frits]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Personally, I believe Adam did have “this spirit” taken away or lost after the fall- which is why God breathed it back into His Apostles right before Pentecost and we must accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit as of Pentecost. 

Hi Charlie,

I respect that Charlie. But may I also have a few questions about it?
If Adam lost his spirit in the fall, how could he live without spirit for 930 years?  (Gen.5: 5)
The spirit that Adam had — whom you believe taken away — can't possibly be the Holy Spirit of God.
Adam is clearly described as "The first man Adam was made a living soul".
The last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ as "was made a quickening spirit."
(1Co.15: 45)

If Adam had already had the spirit of Pentecost, wouldn't he also be described as "a quickening spirit"?

God bless you.

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Very nice thoughts! I have no knowledge of Hebrew but for me this “air” is special. It is so much more than simple air! The “spirit” of God is sometimes mentioned as “wind”. 

He placed within us His Spirit which is not what all or any other creatures received- they were created and not breathed in by God. 

Personally, I believe Adam did have “this spirit” taken away or lost after the fall- which is why God breathed it back into His Apostles right before Pentecost and we must accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit as of Pentecost. 

Believers will once again have His Spirit within us. 

Enjoy your comments and have a great new year, Charlie 

To try and simplify this a bit, if I'm understanding your question(s) correctly, my thoughts again?

We are tri-part human beings; body-soul-spirit. 

Romans 8:16 (KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [emphasis added]. Every human from and including Adam is gifted a spirit. The upper case Spirit above is the Holy Spirit. 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [emphasis added]

Adam never lost his spirit while he was in the flesh. He didn't lose it either when he died, it returned to the Lord (Ecc. 12:7).

Prior to the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit didn't permanently indwell anyone; the Holy Spirit made appearances; Samson as an example.

1 Samuel 16:13 (KJV) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. 

Adam sinned, therefore death entered the world and he would eventually physically die. Satan became the lord of the dead. Adam kept his human spirit until he died, when it returned unto the Lord. 

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Charlie,

I respect that Charlie. But may I also have a few questions about it?
If Adam lost his spirit in the fall, how could he live without spirit for 930 years?  (Gen.5: 5)
The spirit that Adam had — whom you believe taken away — can't possibly be the Holy Spirit of God.
Adam is clearly described as "The first man Adam was made a living soul".
The last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ as "was made a quickening spirit."
(1Co.15: 45)

If Adam had already had the spirit of Pentecost, wouldn't he also be described as "a quickening spirit"?

God bless you.

Again I believe I should apologize for not be very clear .

I do not believe God breathed THE Holy Spirit into Adam. The Holy Spirit IS God and one of the Trinity. God would breath into Adam His Spirit- part of Him that was righteous and Holy. EVERYTHING of and in God is ONLY Holy and Good and Perfect, therefore even a small breath into Adam would impart great righteousness. This is what separates man from all other creatures. 

All creatures have bodies and breath air and have a “spirit”, they can think and feel etc. But Adam was the only creature who God breathed into for the purpose of creating him in His image. This was identified (for us) in the Scripture as Adam having a shroud or outer covering. He could be in the presence of God. God was / is Holy, the midst of the Garden was / is Holy and Adam WAS created Holy. But Adam lost his Holiness by sinning and was forced outside of The Garden. 

Adam did not lose his body, His breathing ability, his human spirit, his ability to think, feel, smell, and everything that made him human but he did lose the one thing that allowed him to be in the Garden and walk with God. 

God’s Plan of Salvation is to bring us back to The Garden and once again to walk with Him- by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior He will send His Holy Spirit to be with us while on earth. God will recognize and see Jesus not our sins standing in front of Him at our resurrection. 

I hope I answered your questions... if not, please continue and I will try, Charlie