Paul an Apostle?

[Starise]

I'm going to bring something up that never even entered my grey matter until a close friend I visited last night brought it up.

He has been reading literature online from people who are saying or who have said Paul really isn't a legit Biblical contributor.

He asked me what I thought about it. I simply stated that I would need to study it more to try and see what these teachers are saying and if I can make any sense of it.

A few key points to this view are as follows:

• The words of Jesus and Paul disagree in places
• Paul could have been a wise man but his writings didn't belong in scripture as inspired writings.
• Peter disagreed with Paul and much of what He said as did other theologians who believed the writings of Paul should be excluded from the canon of scripture.

Here's a link to one of the adherents to these ideas-https://jesuswordsonly.com/

Edited December 28, 2020 by Starise

[1to3]

Hi Starise;

I have not yet looked at your link but briefly, my opinion form having read the bible is that Paul is the 12 apostle replacing Judas Iscariot.

Even though after Christ Jesus resurrection the apostles thought to replace Judas by playing a chance divination stick game into choosing the next apostle (which I do not think God would approve of), I believe God chose spiritually Paul by Christ Jesus appearing to him, thus transforming Paul from being a persecutor of Christians to being one of the most faithful believers in Christ Jesus being who He said He was, without having met Christ while He was alive, but having met Him after His resurrection .Paul's conversion to believing Christ Jesus was who He said He was is the biggest testimonial to Jews that Christ Was who He said He was.

I remember years ago speaking with a Jewish woman about being a christian and she said to me: you know who is the most damaging character in your christian belief? it is Paul.

I believe she said this because , Paul was a very learned man and a strong Pharisees Jew before His conversion from persecutor of Christian to defenders of the Christians and Christ Jesus. That to Jew is hard to swallow.But also that can touch the heart of a Jew today into becoming a believer in Christ Jesus the One and only Messiah for both Jew and Gentile.

Best regards

In Christ Jesus Always

;1to3

Edited December 28, 2020 by 1to3

[Who me]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

people who are saying or who have said Paul really isn't a legit Biblical contributor.

Luke's account of Paul in Acts shows him warts and all and as one acknowledged by God as an apostle. 

If anyone wants to remove Paul and his writings then they are going to but the new testament down to Mathew, Mark, John and the epistles of Peter Jude, James and John.

 

Now why would anyone want to do that?

 

Maybe because they have a motive to damage Christianity.

[Guest kingdombrat]

It is kind of odd to think how Yeshua spent His time with 12 men teaching them the "Gospel of Christ."   And before Yeshua ascends He commands these {now 11 men} to preach this Gospel they were taught and to go everywhere making new Disciples/Converts based upon this "Gospel of Christ."

 

But how our Bible is laid out, suddenly Paul comes onto the scene.   And not only does he show up, but now he begins adding to the Gospel.   Suddenly we are discussing Grace and being able to live imparted by our sinful nature, the Holy Spirit is broken down to more specifics such as "Gifts/Fruits" and how as Believers we are to use the ones we have been given, we learn about how we will go about meeting God when we are gathered {Rapture[dead/alive]}, Daniel is clarified more pertaining to the coming Tribulation, and to some we can look at the Book of Hebrews (clearly written by Luke documenting one of Paul's sermon's - in theory), we learn how to set up Churches/how to keep in touch with the Churches to encourage them or rebuke them, and we see a lot of Paul's personal life and trials for an example to be over comers.

 

Indeed, what we learn from the 4 Gospels is more than enough for us to survive on.   Then we add James and Jude and a few others including the Epistles of Peter and we can definitely cross the finish line and be golden.   But Paul adds clarity to many viewpoints we still would be questioning.   His additions are basically the short hand Thesaurus.

 

Now, after saying all that I have, according to Paul whatever he said, wrote, did were basically directions coming straight from Christ Himself.   And still, there are contradictions when we Compare the Gospels vs Paul.   I for one do not believe Christ would change anything He said/did when we know from John 14 Christ said it was the Father doing the works while dwelling within Him.   If I have any beef at all, it's where these 2 do not match up at.   Other than that, what Paul adds makes my life easier walking in God!

Edited December 28, 2020 by kingdombrat

[Desopixi Seilynam]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

Peter disagreed with Paul and much of what He said as did other theologians who believed the writings of Paul should be excluded from the canon of scripture.

It is because of what Peter said of Paul, and the way Peter addresses Paul, that we can take Paul as anybody.
Other than this passage, we have no other direct back-up for Paul other than his own words and that he is included in Acts.

2 Peter 3:14-16

"Be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And realize that the patience of our Lord is salvation [2 Peter 3:9 that we all reach the knowledge repentance] 
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given him has written unto you;
as also in all his letters, speaking of these things [how we are to live] 
in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned [about all scripture]
and unstable [they fall back into sin] twist, as they do the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Those words specifically back up all the letters of Paul.

Indeed when Paul spoke of scripture I don't think he was speaking of his own words,
I don't think these men exactly knew that we would be hashing over their every written word so much,
it is a gift they have been given. Their words are part of Holy scripture.

And therefore also, because it is 2 Peter 3:14-16 that gives validity to Paul's letters, we should always, always, have it in mind when reading Paul, for we are clearly told that some things Paul said can be hard to understand.

 

For example Romans 9, many want to take the end of Romans 9 and conclude that some are predestined for heaven,
and others predestined for hell. Clearly Romans 9 is hard to understand. However the Spirit through Paul continued the thought:

"In a house there are vessels of honor and dishonor, if a man cleanse himself from dishonor he shall be a vessel unto honor"
2 Timothy 2:20-21  [Psalm 119:9]

And the scripture that these men would have been referring to are books such as Isaiah and Ezekiel.
The scripture is also what we must learn to fully understand Paul. In the Romans 9 case we must learn Ezekiel 18 and 33.
Another good example is Romans 10:7-13, Paul is directly quoting Deuteronomy 30:12-14 and therefore saying that Christ is the word of God come down from heaven, "that we may hear it and do it", it's important that we do not miss such context.

 "for he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... circumcision is that of the heart"
Paul was not making that up, that is not 'new' revelation, it's scripture his audience would have known:

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart... Love ye therefore the stranger" Deuteronomy 10:16,19.

You see Joshua of Nazareth was and is the Messiah, the messenger of God; saying the same things God already said.

"Love your enemies and them that hate you" Exodus 23:4-5
"Love your enemies and them that hate you" Luke 6:27

These would be some of the strongest proofs to a Jewish and/or scripture believing audience,
because the greatest prophecy concerning the Messiah is that He would speak the words of God: Deuteronomy 18:18-19.

And to an audience that did not have the new testament as we have it today, they no doubt would have been studying things such as this in relation to the Messiah.
 

We can see the message of the Messiah; sincere love for everyone,
coming from all of Gods speakers, beginning with Moses:

Exodus 22:21
Exodus 23:4-5, 9
Leviticus 19:17-18, 33-34
Deuteronomy 10:16,19
Job 31
Psalm 15
Isaiah 1:11-20, 58:5-10
Jeremiah 22:3-5
Zechariah 7:9-12, 8:14-17
Matthew 7:12
Luke 6:27-49
John 15:12
Romans 13:8-10
1 Corinthians 13
Galatians 5:6,14
1 John 2:3-4, 4:8
 

Including Paul. The message is in unison, we who believe are empowered to sincerely love everyone,
therefore sincere believers are marked by sincere love. For God is love.

[NotAllThere]

Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15,16).

QED. Paul's writings are scripture.

Funnily enough, Muslims are among those who reject Paul as an apostle, claiming he perverted Christ's message. It seems likely that their view is built upon certain Jewish perspectives. Some Jews consider Paul's writings to be anti-Semitic.

 

[Starise]

Many thanks to all for your contributions here. 

I will further check out these references you gave Desopixi Seilynam and others.

I can see some of you have already turned these stones before. This is a relief to me and I'm thankful that Worthy is here with people who know about these things. I have read the Bible most of my life but sometimes one of these things comes out of left field and something just doesn't compute entirely. 

My take on this is Paul was the man God chose to go to the Gentiles or one of the key men in the early church. What I might have questioned the most is whether everything he said should be taken as seriously or is in the canon in the same way as the words of Jesus. Or can we rest assured the words Paul wrote can safely be added to what Jesus said or supersede it? I would say if there is ever any question about it Jesus wins every time. This also brings to bear the idea that some speakers how more weight in the Bible. Obviously what Jesus says had better line up with what anyone else says.

The fact that Paul was breaking down barriers and presenting a much less legalistic gospel would have made him very unpopular with many Jews. Remember though , he WAS one of those Jews.

Some of the accusations are as follows-

• Paul was self promoting and we only have the story of God blinding him as coming from Paul making the story suspect ( for some people).
• Some of what Paul said is different than what Jesus said.  I can't confirm this yet and I don't expect I will. He might have added to what Jesus said which is seen as shaky ground by some if Paul isn't considered to be a writer included in the canon.

My personal opinion on this thus far might not mean much because we want the facts not opinions. Still I find I can't avoid a few compelling things about the man Paul.

• Whatever Paul did, he did it with gusto. When he persecuted and murdered Christians he did it well and he thought he was doing the right thing. When God came to him later on after God changed him, Paul proceeded with the same gusto to promote the very thing he had fought against. This would severely hurt the pride of many men and would not be the sort of thing most people would be prone to do.
• Why would a man who committed himself to the destruction of Christianity make a 180 degree turn and take message that he believed was for his people ( the Jews) add to it the subsequent events of Jesus as gospel and then risk his life to promote it traveling all over the known world of the time as one of the first missionaries? To take such teachings and bend them, in the eyes of the legalistic Jews this amounted to treason. Things such as the eating of certain meats were now ok. To a Jew this might look like taking a major denomination today and chopping it all up. Would not sit well.
• Paul was a learned man. In todays terms he held a PhD when it came to the scriptures. One cannot argue that he was mentally challenged and believed everything that came down the pipes. He was a highly educated intelligent man saying these things.

That Paul might have expressed some of his opinions and they somehow made it into the canon as fact when they were not really laws to live by for all modern men might be up for grabs. Some of his comments concerning women and their place seem a bit archaic when you consider that Jesus had women who he respected and they might have been considered high ranking. I know people who see Paul as anti woman, or at least he thought less of them. This isn't MY opinion thus far. I am just relaying this as one concern my friend has. Should we regard many of the things Paul said as cultural customary saying for only that time?

To discredit Paul from a canon perspective really would change how one views the Bible. I think that's a given.

Further thoughts?

[johnthebaptist]

8 hours ago, Starise said:

I'm going to bring something up that never even entered my grey matter until a close friend I visited last night brought it up.

He has been reading literature online from people who are saying or who have said Paul really isn't a legit Biblical contributor.

He asked me what I thought about it. I simply stated that I would need to study it more to try and see what these teachers are saying and if I can make any sense of it.

A few key points to this view are as follows:

• The words of Jesus and Paul disagree in places
• Paul could have been a wise man but his writings didn't belong in scripture as inspired writings.
• Peter disagreed with Paul and much of what He said as did other theologians who believed the writings of Paul should be excluded from the canon of scripture.

Here's a link to one of the adherents to these ideas-https://jesuswordsonly.com/

I think Paul was an Apostle (he calls himself that) and that he was a very wise man. I think we can learn much from him. I do not believe Apostles were on the same level as God or Jesus.

[missmuffet]

Yes, Paul was an Apostle who came along later. 

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Hi Starise;

I have not yet looked at your link but briefly, my opinion form having read the bible is that Paul is the 12 apostle replacing Judas Iscariot.

Even though after Christ Jesus resurrection the apostles thought to replace Judas by playing a chance divination stick game into choosing the next apostle (which I do not think God would approve of), I believe God chose spiritually Paul by Christ Jesus appearing to him, thus transforming Paul from being a persecutor of Christians to being one of the most faithful believers in Christ Jesus being who He said He was, without having met Christ while He was alive, but having met Him after His resurrection .Paul's conversion to believing Christ Jesus was who He said He was is the biggest testimonial to Jews that Christ Was who He said He was.

I remember years ago speaking with a Jewish woman about being a christian and she said to me: you know who is the most damaging character in your christian belief? it is Paul.

I believe she said this because , Paul was a very learned man and a strong Pharisees Jew before His conversion from persecutor of Christian to defenders of the Christians and Christ Jesus. That to Jew is hard to swallow.But also that can touch the heart of a Jew today into becoming a believer in Christ Jesus the One and only Messiah for both Jew and Gentile.

Best regards

In Christ Jesus Always

;1to3

Evening there 1to3,

I view things just a bit differently. Matthias was the legitimate 12th Apostle replacing Judas Iscariot. Praying, then drawing lots was acceptable to the Lord as far back as Moses (cf. Numbers 33:54; 34:13, etc.). Joshua 14:2 (KJV) By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe. [emphasis added]. The Holy Spirit fell upon Matthias also on the day of Pentecost.

Romans 1:1 (KJV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, [emphasis added]

Paul admitted he was least of all the apostles: 1 Corinthians 15:9 (KJV) For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Paul was separated from the other apostles [but not exclusive], to be the apostle to the gentiles.

Paul even implies he is not part of the original twelve when he states:  1 Corinthians 15:8 (KJV) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. [emphasis added]. Paul was a late comer and didn't personally witness the work and miracles of Jesus.

Immediately after his conversion, Paul retired into the solitude's of Arabia (Gal. 1:17, 18), perhaps of “Sinai in Arabia,” for the purpose, probably, of devout study and meditation. The Lord Jesus Himself probably mentored and taught Paul? Philippians 3:10 (KJV) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians chapter 3: seems to confirm Paul's tutelage.

There were certain requirements to be one of Christ's twelve apostles, of which I won't delve into. But one of them is to have physically seen and witnessed the risen Lord Jesus Christ. Paul couldn't have seen Jesus on the road to Damascus, as he was immediately blinded.

Just my thoughts, our mileages all vary...