Paul an Apostle?

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 minute ago, Marathoner said:

Jesus --- Iesous in the Greek --- is an English rendering of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua. That's all. 

Agreed!

Was just pointing out something we are aware of.   But if letters don't exist in translation, it's not getting translated.

 

Look at Gospel of Mark.

Scholars are well within understanding words like [talitha], [Eli Eli llama sabacthani] were Aramaic the Greek had no example and wording for.   So they left it Aramaic.   And this was Peter speaking the Aramaic and Mark translating them into our Gospel.  So possibly, there's bound to be mistakes. 

[Marathoner]

Paul's words are not at odds with the Lord. Christ Himself said, 

“Hear and understand! It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.” (Matthew 15:10b-11 NASB)

The Pharisees were offended by this. Peter did not understand the words of the Lord. 

Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” Jesus said, “Are you also still lacking in understanding? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and those things defile the person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. These are the things that defile the person; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the person.” (Matthew 15:15-20 NASB)

Nothing external can defile us but rather, what comes forth from our heart is what defiles us. The same is expressed in Paul's letters (epistles), which Peter noted are difficult for some to understand. This rings true in the present day. 

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 minute ago, Marathoner said:

Paul's words are not at odds with the Lord. Christ Himself said, 

“Hear and understand! It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.” (Matthew 15:10b-11 NASB)

The Pharisees were offended by this. Peter did not understand the words of the Lord. 

Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” Jesus said, “Are you also still lacking in understanding? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and those things defile the person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. These are the things that defile the person; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the person.” (Matthew 15:15-20 NASB)

Nothing external can defile us but rather, what comes forth from our heart is what defiles us. The same is expressed in Paul's letters (epistles), which Peter noted are difficult for some to understand. This rings true in the present day. 

That's my point specifically.

If Paul's words and Christs words line up that's how it is supposed to be.   Because Paul is being led by Christ, who spoke the [words] to begin with.   Then I pointed out, if what you read does not line up, you could have a single word not allowing it to make sense.  That's in translation.

[David1701]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:39 AM, Starise said:

I'm going to bring something up that never even entered my grey matter until a close friend I visited last night brought it up.

He has been reading literature online from people who are saying or who have said Paul really isn't a legit Biblical contributor.

He asked me what I thought about it. I simply stated that I would need to study it more to try and see what these teachers are saying and if I can make any sense of it.

A few key points to this view are as follows:

• The words of Jesus and Paul disagree in places
• Paul could have been a wise man but his writings didn't belong in scripture as inspired writings.
• Peter disagreed with Paul and much of what He said as did other theologians who believed the writings of Paul should be excluded from the canon of scripture.

Here's a link to one of the adherents to these ideas-https://jesuswordsonly.com/

The people who are spreading these teachings, are divisive false teachers.

Peter confirmed that Paul's teaching was true, which means that it agrees with Jesus' teaching.

2 Pet. 3:15,16 (WEB)

 15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;
  16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The Lord himself commissioned Paul as an apostle.  He was the true replacement for Judas Iscariot, rather than the one chosen by lot, who is never mentioned again (the apostles only gave the Lord the choice between two people!).

Edited January 5, 2021 by David1701

[SisterWells]

24 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Paul's words are not at odds with the Lord. Christ Himself said, 

“Hear and understand! It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.” (Matthew 15:10b-11 NASB)

The Pharisees were offended by this. Peter did not understand the words of the Lord. 

Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” Jesus said, “Are you also still lacking in understanding? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and those things defile the person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. These are the things that defile the person; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the person.” (Matthew 15:15-20 NASB)

Nothing external can defile us but rather, what comes forth from our heart is what defiles us. The same is expressed in Paul's letters (epistles), which Peter noted are difficult for some to understand. This rings true in the present day. 

How do we reconcile what was written in Act 15:20? That we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. The rest they'll learn on Saturdays at Synagogue.

Didn't the apostles, the elders and everyone else there agree, including Paul?

Edited January 5, 2021 by SisterWells

[Marathoner]

5 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

That's my point specifically.

If Paul's words and Christs words line up that's how it is supposed to be.   Because Paul is being led by Christ, who spoke the [words] to begin with.   Then I pointed out, if what you read does not line up, you could have a single word not allowing it to make sense.  That's in translation.

I understand where you're coming from but this is not due to the vagaries of translation. This has everything to do with the striving of the flesh to view what it cannot see, and grasp what it cannot understand. Thus Yeshua spoke in parables to the blind but revealed their meaning to the ones He chose. 

The Lord reveals Himself as it pleases Him. Indeed, our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases. 

While it's true that considerable portions of the scriptures known to the Lord and the apostles are missing today this in no way diminishes the power of the living God; as the author of Hebrews wrote, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

The scriptures may be read with the eyes but remain closed to the heart much in the same way that the Pharisees, who understood the scriptures and sat in the seat of Moses, refused to believe Him whom our Father sent. Not all of the Pharisees were this way, of course... a number of Pharisees did in fact believe Christ, albeit clandestinely while He walked in this flesh. We know this for a number of Pharisees who believed were with the church in Jerusalem after the Lord rose from the dead. 

Finally, it's entirely possible to be mistaken about something and still be loved by the Lord. Peter is an excellent example: our brother was rebuked by the Lord on more than one occasion and even by Paul. This had to do with Peter's upbringing and impressions, not his heart toward Christ whom he was among the first to recognize as the Messiah.

Far too much emphasis is placed upon the letter by many, forgetting that it is the Spirit of the Lord who illuminates us and leads us into truth. Again, this is where Paul's words ring true. In a way, Paul was the apostle ideally suited to minister to us in the present day, the time of the end when darkness covers not only the world but the hearts of men. He was the chosen vessel of Christ after all.  

[SisterWells]

1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

I see now this will only wined up with a barrage of misinterpreted and out of context comments that will only be seen a game to you. I could answer to all these mindless ramblings, but  I choose not to get in this battle of out of text comments. 

Nice talking to you though. God bless  

To others here it would be wise to not to answer his posts

What? I see out of context comments as a game? Calling my comments mindless ramblings isn't very nice. Did you mean to quote me?

Edited January 5, 2021 by SisterWells

[Marathoner]

23 minutes ago, SisterWells said:

How do we reconcile what was written in Act 15:20? That we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. The rest they'll learn on Saturdays at Synagogue.

Didn't the apostles, the elders and everyone else there agree, including Paul?

It would be helpful if you read the entire chapter so the context is revealed to your understanding, my friend. What did James say?

"Therefore, it is my judgment that we do not cause trouble for those from the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols, from acts of sexual immorality, from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21)

James mediated a dispute within the church of that day, @SisterWells. That much is made clear when one reads the entirety of Acts 15. Pharisees in the church were demanding that foreigners (gentiles) adhere to the law of Moses and James, being an elder and peacemaker, rendered a judgment which was acceptable to all parties involved. 

What did the Lord say in the 5th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew?

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." (verse 9). 

James rendered a judgment which satisfied the aggrieved and the Pharisees alike. 

[Marathoner]

Others who are more knowledge in such matters will attest to certain practices which were extant among the gentiles of that day and time. Debauchery (sexual immorality), drunken revelry, and the eating of certain sacrificial foods were attached to the festivals and "holy days" associated with the idols of the Roman and the Greek... the wisdom of James' judgment is rather profound in light of those times. These were common social practices in the gentile world. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Marathoner

[Starise]

I believe much of this is simply due to  overthinking in addition to taking verses out of context with either close aligned text in the very same chapter or not allowing for other text to assist in an explanation.  Even so, the answers aren't always readily apparent. This is why we are told in 2 Timothy to study. I am not insinuating people here aren't on a study path. Christians are often on different paths as it relates to their progression of study through the word.

I don't see anyone intentionally maligning the Bible here. There comes a point where the scale tips in favor of the right answers. Ask yourself if you had an 80/20 decision in favor of clear support for Paul what would you do with that other 20%?

In this case I think the evidence is overwhelming. Others might not agree. 

If God has told us all scripture is both spiritually and scholastically understood since we are to study to show ourselves approved. Study with the guidance of the spirit.

This isn't something that's beyond any Christian with maybe the exception of the mentally challenged. God can still lead those persons to Him even so. 

That said, we all have access to the answers. Doubt can lead to questions. Questions can lead to answers. Doubt can be good. I don't see doubt as evil if someone voices it. The cure is knowledge. Spiritual knowledge. Doubt against the truth will never stand to factual sound spiritual reasoning.