I dont understand the trinity

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Who wants to know?

 

 

[Waggles]

On 1/26/2021 at 5:30 AM, Daily Bread said:

King David said in Psalm 51 ..."And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." This is God's Holy Spirit and not a separate being. This same spirit is talked about throughout the Psalms

Yes, well said.

Even the Jews prior to the rise of Christianity (the second temple period) taught the doctrine of "two powers in heaven" - a visible God that interacted with humans here on Earth [the angel of Yahweh for instance] and an invisible God that remained in heaven and spoke to and through the other. 

Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.  Genesis 19:24

God the Father who is with God - the Son, the Word, Redeemer, Saviour, Prince of Peace, bread of life, Yahweh, creator, ... ... 

the Holy Spirit is the operative power of God the Father that works and achieves outcomes here in the world 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Luke 24:49  And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

[Waggles]

Psalm 82

1  A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 
2  “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 
3  Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 
4  Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” 
5  They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 
6  I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 
7  nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.” 
8  Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations! 

God dressing down angels?  

[JohnD]

On 1/30/2021 at 3:40 PM, Waggles said:

Yes, well said.

Even the Jews prior to the rise of Christianity (the second temple period) taught the doctrine of "two powers in heaven" - a visible God that interacted with humans here on Earth [the angel of Yahweh for instance] and an invisible God that remained in heaven and spoke to and through the other. 

Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.  Genesis 19:24

God the Father who is with God - the Son, the Word, Redeemer, Saviour, Prince of Peace, bread of life, Yahweh, creator, ... ... 

the Holy Spirit is the operative power of God the Father that works and achieves outcomes here in the world 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Luke 24:49  And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

Acts 5:3–4 (AV)
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Acts 13:2 (AV)
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

The Holy Spirit is a person, not a force.

 

 

[JohnD]

On 1/27/2021 at 9:05 PM, Episcopius said:

Isa 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,

 

The mighty God,

 

The everlasting Father,

 

The Prince of Peace.

 

 

Maybe this gets The Apostles Creed off the hook  - Jesus is called the everlasting Father - and Apostles Creed goes back to Old Roman Symbol about 100 AD.

Also, Trinitarian symbols have been found in the CATACOMBS way before Nicene Creed.

 

"I believe in God the Father... creator of heaven and earth..." 

This is a reference to the Father of Jesus, not Jesus as the Father of creation.

Jesus is the father of creation (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 / Isaiah 44:24)

but he is not his own Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14).

[Waggles]

7 minutes ago, JohnD said:

The Holy Spirit is a person, not a force.

Misquoting me. I wrote:

On 1/31/2021 at 8:10 AM, Waggles said:

the Holy Spirit is the operative power of God the Father that works and achieves outcomes here in the world

so of course the Holy Spirit is a person as He is the means by which God the Father operates in the world [God is a spirit ...]

and makes his abode in the Spirit-filled disciple.

Thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit is to blaspheme the Father and the gospel of Jesus. 

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (KJV)

1Corin 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 
20  for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 

[JohnD]

On 1/25/2021 at 6:11 PM, popsthebuilder said:

Uhm...the Holy Spirit of GOD?

Couple that with the biblical truth that GOD is One, and GOD is Spirit and that GOD is not man and it becomes relatively clear that man in any form does not equal GOD almighty.

Jesus never said He was equal to or partner with GOD. Unified in Spirit doesn't mean the flesh is GOD almighty so much as the flesh being the Holy Temple in which the Holy Spirit of GOD dwells.

You are agreed that Genesis 1:1 clearly states that GOD created the heavens and the earth? 

John 1:3 (AV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

John 1:3 refers to God the Word who became Jesus (John 1:14).

Colossians 1:6 refers to Christ (Colossians 1:13)

And Isaiah 44:24 says he (YHVH / The LORD referring to the preincarnate Jesus) did it alone by himself.

In the beginning Jesus Created the heavens and the earth.

Philippians 2:5–11 (AV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In verse 6 the Greek for "form of God" is "morphe theos huparchon" =  in the form of God unceasing...

Whoever or whatever taught you Jesus is not the Creator God in the flesh pulled the wool over your eyes.

[JohnD]

7 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Misquoting me. I wrote:

so of course the Holy Spirit is a person as He is the means by which God the Father operates in the world [God is a spirit ...]

and makes his abode in the Spirit-filled disciple.

Thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit is to blaspheme the Father and the gospel of Jesus. 

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (KJV)

1Corin 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 
20  for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 

John 14:26 (AV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 (AV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit is as much an individual in the Godhead as are the Father and the Word (Jesus). His ministry is to reveal Christ (John 15:26), indwell believers (John 14:17), and empower called ones for specific tasks (Isaiah 61:1) as well as inspire prophets both writing and non-writing (2 Peter 1:21)

 

[JohnD]

On 1/25/2021 at 6:29 PM, Daily Bread said:

 

• 1 John 3:1-2
  Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
   
• Genesis 1:26-27
  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
   
• Ephesians 3:14-19
  For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
   
• Romans 8:14-17
  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
   
• Romans 8:29
  For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
   
• Romans 8:9-11
  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
   
• John 1:1-3
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
   
• John 6:44-45
  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.'Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
   
• Ephesians 1:3-5
  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
   
• Ephesians 2:18-19
  For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
   
• John 17:11
  Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
   
• 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
  For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
   
• 1 Corinthians 15:49
  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
   
• Ephesians 1:13-14
  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
   
• Philippians 2:6-8
  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
   
• Colossians 1:12-15
  giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
   
• Matthew 5:48
  Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
   
• John 5:17-19
  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
   
• John 14:9
  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
   
• John 14:28
  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
   
• John 17:20-22
  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
   
• John 20:17
  Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
   
• 1 Corinthians 11:3
  But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
   
• 2 Corinthians 3:18
  But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
   
• Ephesians 1:9-11
  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
   
• Ephesians 1:22-23
  And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
   
• Ephesians 4:13-16
  till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
   
• Hebrews 1:2-3
  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
   
• Hebrews 2:10-11
  For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
   
• 2 Peter 1:4
  by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
   
• Matthew 11:27
  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
   
• John 1:18
  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
   
• John 3:3-6
  Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
   
• John 17:5
  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
   
• Acts 17:28-29
  for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
   
• Romans 6:4
  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
   
• 1 Corinthians 12:13-17
  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
   
• 2 Corinthians 5:17
  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
   
• Galatians 4:6
  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, 'Abba, Father!'
   
• Ephesians 2:10
  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
   
• Ephesians 4:4-6
  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
   
• Philippians 3:20-21
  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
   
• Colossians 1:17-19
  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
   
• Daniel 7:13-14
  “ I was watching in the night visions,
  And behold, One like the Son of Man,
  Coming with the clouds of heaven!
  He came to the Ancient of Days,
  And they brought Him near before Him.
  Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
  That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
  His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
  Which shall not pass away,
  And His kingdom the one
  Which shall not be destroyed.
   
• Matthew 1:23
  "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
   
• Matthew 11:25
  At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
   
• Matthew 13:11
  He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
   
• Matthew 16:18
  And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
   
• Matthew 25:34
  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
   
• Mark 3:35
  For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.'
   
• John 1:13-14
  who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
   
• John 5:30
  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
   
• John 6:29
  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
   
• John 8:29
  And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
   
• John 10:35
  If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
   
• 1 Corinthians 15:24
  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
   
• Galatians 3:29
  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
   
• Ephesians 2:12
  that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
   
• Colossians 1:26
  the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
   
• Hebrews 1:8
  But to the Son He says:
  “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
  A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
  
   
• Hebrews 3:6
  but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
   
• 1 Peter 4:17
  For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

I don't see the question answered among all the filler verses quoted to make the post long. The closest you came is:

Ephesians 3:14–15 (AV)
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Bear in mind, the family referred to here can include actual family members of human procreation,

but the family at large is rather a unity in relationship focused and centered upon Christ / predicated on belief in him.

As far as familial relations between individuals in the Godhead, it was non-existent until the incarnation:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Indicating neither existed until the body of the Son (Hebrews 10:5) was created by the Father (John 1:14) for God the Word (John 1:1-2) 

who is the Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3  /  Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2 / Isaiah 44:24).

 

 

 

[Waggles]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

The Holy Spirit is as much an individual in the Godhead as are the Father and the Word (Jesus). His ministry is to reveal Christ (John 15:26), indwell believers (John 14:17), and empower called ones for specific tasks (Isaiah 61:1) as well as inspire prophets both writing and non-writing (2 Peter 1:21)

All of the above can be done by and through the Father. Jesus and the Father are spiritually one. Jesus comes to the world in human form from ancient times (such as walking in the garden of Eden through to his ministry here on Earth). But as I read scripture God the Father works through Jesus and also his Spirit on Earth (this does not leave Jesus out of the equation). 

John 10:30  I and my Father are one.

John 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 
22  And the glory which thou gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 

Jesus never ever talks about being one with the Holy Spirit only with the Father. 

And the while Spirit-filled Christian can pray fervently in the Spirit we do not pray to the Holy Spirit but to our Father.

Ephesians 2:18  For through him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Romans 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

John 14:16  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 
17  even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. 
18  “I will not leave you as orphans; I [Jesus] will come to you."

Edited February 4, 2021 by Waggles