Daniel 2, 7 and 8 - Identifying the 3 actors

[douggg]

32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So you do not find "he" as the AC who will make some covenant in the midst  of the last week of the 70 weeks... correct?

I do think the little horn>Antichrist>beast person will confirm the covenant for 7 years.  

 Then, what takes place in the midst (middle portion) of the 7 years - is that the little horn>Antichrist>beast person stops the daily sacrifice and violates the covenant, by committing the "transgression" of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

The covenant that is being referred to is the Mt. Sinai covenant (not a peace treaty covenant).   

Why so?   Way back in Moses's day, Moses made a requirement that all future leaders of Israel were to see to that the Mt. Sinai covenant, i.e. the law, and all that the children of Israel went through - would be commemorated every 7 years.

It is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

 

[douggg]

51 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

And while we are here, why don't you believe that the Messiah did not complete all 6 of these requirements? I believe He certainly did!

What has not been fulfilled is "the vision" and the prophecies associated with that vision.

 

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

That vision is the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn person, him stopping of the daily sacrifice, committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple be cleansed of all he will have done.     Gabriel said that vision is "time of the end".

That vision has a 2300 days span to it.    And will fit within the 7 years, in Daniel 9:27, of 2520 days.

Edited January 18, 2021 by douggg

[Charlie744]

Just now, douggg said:

What has not been fulfilled is "the vision" and the prophecies associated with that vision.

 

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

That vision is the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn person, him stopping of the daily sacrifice, committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple be cleansed of all he will have done.     Gabriel said that vision is "time of the end".

 

Doug, I believe that your interpretation is certainly in keeping with the current majority view of today... 

Without responding at this time I will simply say that Daniel ALONE s writing about the Messiah and NOT some AC figure that is thrown into the future and also with this RCC counter reformation theory includes an this 7 last years and this covenant supposedly entered into by this AC.. 

Daniel is writing about Jesus. Around the 1500’s the RCC had the Jesuits construct a new interpretation using Daniel to ensure they (papacy) would no longer be viewed as the little horn (that was the consensus), they had to throw this little horn in the future to get this “off their back”. They succeeded wildly by asserting the “he” in 9:27 is the AC, this AC will arrive in the final week of the 70 weeks sometime in the distant future and then he will make a covenant with Israel in the midst of the 7 years!

This is ALL RCC and also a perfect example of them being the little horn!!!!

Again, Daniel is ALL about the Messiah...

I will be back in touch with you and by the way, this is exactly why I NEED to have folks discuss Daniel WITHOUT Revelation... these misinterpretations corrupt Revelation. Charlie 

[douggg]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I will be back in touch with you and by the way, this is exactly why I NEED to have folks discuss Daniel WITHOUT Revelation... these misinterpretations corrupt Revelation. Charlie 

The 2300 day "time of the end" vision of the little horn person is not in Revelation, but Daniel.    Daniel 8.

 

10 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Daniel is writing about Jesus.

Also about the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person.    

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

The 2300 day "time of the end" vision of the little horn person is not in Revelation, but Daniel.    Daniel 8.

 

Also about the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn person.    

No, the vision is about the 70 weeks prophecy- all that the Messiah must fulfill and complete during the vision given Daniel. 

The 2300 days is ALL about the Messiah! People again throw this into the future with all the rest of the difficult verses in Daniel - they just became a very bad set of interpretations thrown into Revelation instead of them speaking to us about the then coming Messiah.

What is your interpretation of the 2300 days and why / what period does it speak to? 

Charlie

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

No, the vision is about the 70 weeks prophecy- all that the Messiah must fulfill and complete during the vision given Daniel. 

Where in Daniel 9, does it say that Daniel had any kind of vision in that chapter?

Daniel 9 did not receive a vision in Daniel 9.    Instead Daniel was given a proclamation by Gabriel of what is determined on his people and Jerusalem.

____________________________________________________________

Daniel was in prayer at the beginning of Daniel 9, but he was not having any kind of vision.   

Gabriel then appeared to Daniel, who Daniel had seen at an earlier time in the vision in Daniel 8.

Daniel 9 is timed in the first year of Darius's rule (Daniel 9:1)

Daniel 8 is timed, earlier, in the third year of Belshazzar's rule (Daniel 8:1)

 

 

[Charlie744]

I am trying to remember that there are two times in Daniel where he is told he will be made to understand the vision- I think it is in 8(?) and 12 (?). 

The earlier refers to those events that will occur when the Messiah comes and in 12 the subject is for the end times... I have to go back and look at these two again- been awhile. 

Daniel 9 certainly is the required prayer he gives to God for His mercy on the Jewish people who disobeyed Him. The punishment would or could not be accepted without this prayer (Leviticus). Daniel is acting as the high priest and speaking this pray for Jews. 

I will get back to you on the “vision” issue. In the meantime what, why, how do you understand the 2300 days and it’s application? Thank you, Charlie 

[douggg]

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I am trying to remember that there are two times in Daniel where he is told he will be made to understand the vision- I think it is in 8(?) and 12 (?). 

The earlier refers to those events that will occur when the Messiah comes and in 12 the subject is for the end times... I have to go back and look at these two again- been awhile. 

Daniel 9 certainly is the required prayer he gives to God for His mercy on the Jewish people who disobeyed Him. The punishment would or could not be accepted without this prayer (Leviticus). Daniel is acting as the high priest and speaking this pray for Jews. 

I will get back to you on the “vision” issue. In the meantime what, why, how do you understand the 2300 days and it’s application? Thank you, Charlie 

The 2300 days require that the daily sacrifice be going on at the time - in order to be stopped by the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

So by taking 2300 from 2520 days (Jesus return on day 2520, the last day of the 7 years), we get 220.      

On day 22o on the timeline (day 1 begun when the little horn>Antichrist>beast person confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, a big speech from the temple mount) the daily sacrifices will begin again.

All of the events associated with the 2300 days from that point will be fulfilled the day that Jesus returns, day 2520.

 

day 1.............day 220.............(2300 days)...............................Jesus returns day 2520

 

On day 2520, Jesus returns and destroys the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

The 2300 days require that the daily sacrifice be going on at the time - in order to be stopped by the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

So by taking 2300 from 2520 days (Jesus return on day 2520, the last day of the 7 years), we get 220.      

On day 22o on the timeline (day 1 begun when the little horn>Antichrist>beast person confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, a big speech from the temple mount) the daily sacrifices will begin again.

All of the events associated with the 2300 days from that point will be fulfilled the day that Jesus returns, day 2520.

 

day 1.............day 220.............(2300 days)...............................Jesus returns day 2520

 

On day 2520, Jesus returns and destroys the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Doug... This is NOT your fault but since I have witnessed many topics and responses within this site it is ALWAYS going to take multiple paths away from the beginning topic... 

In a relatively short period of time we have already opened at least 10 new subtopics... and a few books at least. 

Again, your response to the 2300 days is thrown out to Revelation... along with the other interpretations mentioned earlier. 

They all belong to the Messiah and His first coming not some AC.. God is not providing us with prophecies about an AC..he is not given any “ink” in His prophecies in Daniel. He is interested in revealing Himself to us! 

1) 9:27 - people ascribe “he” to some AC figure out into the future so the little horn is no longer tied to the RCC,

2) chapter 9 provides us with 6 fulfillment’s of the coming Messiah ... the most important event in mankind’s history and we refuse to recognize what He has come for and what He accomplished by His crucifixion and resurrection... This I don’t understand!!!

3) there is ONLY One who can make a covenant with Israel- this happens to be the last of the covenants made by God (not some mythical AC). The Messiah entered into this final covenant in the last week of the 70 weeks. All 6 requirements were fulfilled in the last week.. despite His crucifixion He fulfilled all of them and on the cross He told us “It is finished”! 

4) what was the purpose behind the prophecy of the 2300 days? Why doesn’t this speak to the Messiah? It does! It is not an end time prophecy! Jesus has already done what He came to do! Daniel is telling us when, who, why, what and how the Messiah would establish His last covenant with us! Except for sending us His Holy Spirit on Pentecost He has done everything He intended to do to save us.. we just don’t want to or know how to view Daniel.. but I assure you, the little horn is certainly guilty of creating and promoting these horrible misinterpretations- away from the Messiah to save themselves from being labeled (rightfully so) as the little horn, 

So, we have indeed went off the topic.. and we can certainly discuss ALL of these interesting verses in Daniel, but I would like to get back to the 4th kingdom—- who is this beast of the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2 & 7?

If you want to first complete the 2300 days .. no problem but you might tell me what is it’s purpose or meaning for God to have Daniel include it in His prophecies (hint: it HAS to speak about the Messiah)!

thanks again, Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

The 2300 days require that the daily sacrifice be going on at the time - in order to be stopped by the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

So by taking 2300 from 2520 days (Jesus return on day 2520, the last day of the 7 years), we get 220.      

On day 22o on the timeline (day 1 begun when the little horn>Antichrist>beast person confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, a big speech from the temple mount) the daily sacrifices will begin again.

All of the events associated with the 2300 days from that point will be fulfilled the day that Jesus returns, day 2520.

 

day 1.............day 220.............(2300 days)...............................Jesus returns day 2520

 

On day 2520, Jesus returns and destroys the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok Doug, I had a little time and I reread your comment on the 2300 days. 

First, if you do not mind I would like to start with the 70 weeks prophecy or the 490 years. As you know there are 3 separate periods carved out of the 490 years: 49 years (7 weeks), 434 years (62 weeks) and the final 7 years (1 week). Each of these sections or periods are identified and represents things that will be fulfilled or completed during their respective times. In chapter 9, Daniel lists 6 requirements that will / must be completed or fulfilled within the last week. They were certainly not addressed in or during the previous two periods or 483 years so they must be accomplished on the last 7 years. 

My contention is the Messiah fulfilled or completed ALL 6 of them! This was His mission, His part in fulfilling His covenant with Israel (and is as well). He doesn’t do almost, or I complete the rest of this most important covenant in another 2,000 years or so... no! The book of Daniel is written about our Messiah and His Plan of Salvation... 

However, I would estimate approximately 99% of today’s interpretations fall on your side of the fence - they push the focus of these prophecies away from the Messiah and out some 2,000 years. 

Now I think we can all agree that the Temple and the ceremonial practices and animal sacrifices, etc., were a “type and shadow” of the coming Messiah. They pointed to Him and as a result of His coming, He became the perfect sacrifice and this would eliminate any further need for this practice. Also, as a result of His coming there would no longer be a need for either a High Priest or a physical Temple. They have been done away with.. And just because today’s Jews (most) continue to reject Jesus as their Messiah AND they still expect Him to come (first time) they still want to construct a 3rd Temple with all the animal sacrifices again and all the Holy vessels, etc.  

But none of this matters AT ALL! Whether they try and re-do or recreate the old ceremonial system does not have any further meaning to God- The ONLY meaning is that they simply refuse to accept Jesus. How could we have any consideration or place any value on those who have rejected the Messiah and His crucifixion?  So regardless of what anyone WANTS to do it (Temple/sacrifice system, etc. ) has absolutely no meaning any longer. Therefore, the 6 requirements can not belong to the end times. Any of these prophecies that have been thrown into the future are misplaced. In order for them to have any credibility it would require having a Temple, or a return of the Jews as was in the time of Christ (but there is no Jew or Greek... ), there would have to be a need for an end times covenant with the Jews... but that is all wrong ! 

Jesus accomplished all that was spoken of Him in Daniel and other Scriptures! There is nothing He left on the table! It is now up to EACH of us to accept the Cross and His resurrection and obey His commandments... He did His part of the final covenant!

So, if the 6 things were not fulfilled in the first 69 weeks of Daniel and they don’t belong or have a meaning or purpose in the end times, they must belong and have meaning in the last 7 years! 

As you mentioned the Messiah would come and take away the daily sacrifice (ceremonial system). He would serve as the perfect and final sacrifice. This had to be accomplished in the last week of the 70 weeks! This means that there would be 7 final Passover’s within the last week. At the end of these Passover’s- no more sacrifices but unfortunately, Jesus, as predicted in Daniel, would be “cut off” in “the midst of the week”! To me, this is crystal clear how it speaks to our Messiah and what actually happened to Him. 

If we add up the number of days from the very first day of the last week (which happens to be the day He was baptized in the Jordan) until the day of the last Passover within the last week of the 70 week prophecy, we will arrive be at exactly 2,340 days! Meaning their will be no more sacrifices after this final Passover. 

As you know, for a Passover to occur WITHIN the Laws of Leviticus, not only must the Temple be declared clean but the High Priest must be declared clean! In this last week the Messiah will serve as our High Priest- But He would ALWAYS obey the Laws and even though He never sinned, He would follow His Fathers laws. Consequently, the very first thing Jesus did AFTER His baptism was to immediately go into the desert to be tempted by the devil. And of course He succeeded and then He fulfilled Leviticus and was now “cleansed”. He spent 40 days in the desert and these 40 days (not yet cleansed) could not be counted within the 7 Passover ceremonies. Therefore, the 2,340 total days from His baptism to the last Passover LESS the cleansing in the desert of 40 days gives us 2,300 days. 

Unfortunately, He was cut off in the midst of the 7 years and He was on earth for only 4 of the 7 Passover’s. However, as mentioned, He predicted His crucifixion in Daniel and Jeremiah and on the cross He said these two things which I believe speak to this issue: He said, “forgive them for they know not what they do”, meaning He came to forgive ALL sins and this through the last 7 Passover’s, and, He said, “it is finished”, meaning that despite His crucifixion and not able to complete all 7 Passover’s for the forgiveness of sins, He still declared FOR US that He indeed finished His mission and all 6 requirements in Daniel 9. 

If we look for Jesus in Daniel we will find Him! But I believe many verses in Daniel are purposely hidden until we are near the end times- and this also ties into the verses in Daniel speaking about knowledge increasing and made known near the end times. 

Please let me know your thoughts.. Charlie 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Charlie744