Owing man vs. owing GOD...

[CaptWalker]

Hello to all-

Well this question is based primarily on Luke-19:8, since i couldn't find another verse which might be more relevant. But was just wondering about how God might judge those(such as me) who owe over $2000 in credit card debt and end up dying, or the Lord returns before any of it is paid off? And also is owing money to a Bank the same as owing it to an individual, who may actually really need it paid back ASAP, and are there any specific verses about this? But either way I know God forgives all "debts" monetary or otherwise, but still i can't see Him being too happy about it. And my own opinion is that you might forfeit some of the rewards you may have received, and that there will be a level of embarrassment associated with that and seeing so many others receiving so much more as far as approval from our Father is concerned, but then that could also happen because of other sins as well. Anyway it's just something i have been feeling really guilty about, and it most of it is due to Covid and being unemployed and not just careless spending.

Edited January 18, 2021 by CaptWalker

[Riverwalker]

Do the best you can, no one expected these times, and your first duty is to your family. Yes you owe the money and Yes it should be paid back, but at the end of all thing money is the least of all concerns.  Did you do the right thing, your actions were no malicious, you have no intent of stiffing anyone.But don't attempt to justify it because you are dealing with an institution rather than an individual. Right is right and wrong is wrong. 

(if the Lord returns before it is paid off, no one is going to be needing money)

In the end whether or not you please God can be summed up in the verse below

[Who me]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:08 PM, CaptWalker said:

Hello to all-

Well this question is based primarily on Luke-19:8, since i couldn't find another verse which might be more relevant. But was just wondering about how God might judge those(such as me) who owe over $2000 in credit card debt and end up dying, or the Lord returns before any of it is paid off? And also is owing money to a Bank the same as owing it to an individual, who may actually really need it paid back ASAP, and are there any specific verses about this? But either way I know God forgives all "debts" monetary or otherwise, but still i can't see Him being too happy about it. And my own opinion is that you might forfeit some of the rewards you may have received, and that there will be a level of embarrassment associated with that and seeing so many others receiving so much more as far as approval from our Father is concerned, but then that could also happen because of other sins as well. Anyway it's just something i have been feeling really guilty about, and it most of it is due to Covid and being unemployed and not just careless spending.

 

Please explain how a lying cheats repentance applies to your contractual debts.

Read the verse:-

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

 

This verse would only apply if you lied inorder to get a loan.

[CaptWalker]

Yes i agree that Luke-19:8 wasn't really talking about paying off debts, but couldn't find any other verses that might apply, which is why i was asking if anyone knew of some others that would apply. But i do think the part of giving 1/2 of what you own to the poor is signicant, since you are not going to be able to give anything if you still have debts to pay off, unless you simply go ahead and "tithe" anyway before anything else, which is really another topic altogether. Such as should you give 10 percent of your income towards your debts first, or simply divide it up between that and what you might give to charity or your church? And some might say money is not really that important to God, but i always hear these prosperity preachers saying how it is mentioned more times in the Bible than almost anything else, but not sure how true that really is? 

[Deborah_]

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another." (Romans 13:8)

We have a moral obligation to pay off all debts as soon as we reasonably can. I don't think it makes much difference whether it's owed to an individual or to a bank; the money isn't really ours, and we shouldn't hold onto it longer than we need to. 

But the key word is "reasonable". As you point out, things like unemployment, sickness and Covid restrictions can make it impossible to repay debts as soon as we would like. And people die with unpaid debts all the time (a young person might take out a mortgage and the next day be hit by a bus). It's no big deal, morally; the money owed gets repaid out of your estate (so effectively the debt is passed on to your inheritors).

[Who me]

21 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

But i do think the part of giving 1/2 of what you own to the poor is signicant,

Why?

A sinner finds salvation and makes restitution as the law requires and also makes a freewill offering to those in need.

 

If your situation allows you to clear your debts, you can also make a freewill offering as your circumstances allow.

[missmuffet]

Question: "What does the Bible say about going into debt?"

Answer: Paul’s charge to us in Romans 13:8 to owe nothing but love is a powerful reminder of God’s distaste for all forms of debt that are not being paid in a timely manner (see also Psalm 37:21). At the same time, the Bible does not explicitly command against all forms of debt. The Bible warns against debt, and extols the virtue of not going into debt, but does not forbid debt. The Bible has harsh words of condemnation for lenders who abuse those who are bound to them in debt, but it does not condemn the debtor.

Some people question the charging of any interest on loans, but several times in the Bible we see that a fair interest rate is expected to be received on borrowed money (Proverbs 28:8; Matthew 25:27). In ancient Israel the Law did prohibit charging interest on one category of loans—those made to the poor (Leviticus 25:35-38). This law had many social, financial, and spiritual implications, but two are especially worth mentioning. First, the law genuinely helped the poor by not making their situation worse. It was bad enough to have fallen into poverty, and it could be humiliating to have to seek assistance. But if, in addition to repaying the loan, a poor person had to make crushing interest payments, the obligation would be more hurtful than helpful.

Second, the law taught an important spiritual lesson. For a lender to forego interest on a loan to a poor person would be an act of mercy. He would be losing the use of that money while it was loaned out. Yet that would be a tangible way of expressing gratitude to God for His mercy in not charging His people “interest” for the grace He has extended to them. Just as God had mercifully brought the Israelites out of Egypt when they were nothing but penniless slaves and had given them a land of their own (Leviticus 25:38), so He expected them to express similar kindness to their own poor citizens.

Christians are in a parallel situation. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus has paid our sin debt to God. Now, as we have opportunity, we can help others in need, particularly fellow believers, with loans that do not escalate their troubles. Jesus even gave a parable along these lines about two creditors and their attitude toward forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35).

The Bible neither expressly forbids nor condones the borrowing of money. The wisdom of the Bible teaches us that it is usually not a good idea to go into debt. Debt essentially makes us a slave to the one who provides the loan. At the same time, in some situations going into debt is a “necessary evil.” As long as money is being handled wisely and the debt payments are manageable, a Christian can take on the burden of financial debt if it is absolutely necessary.

https://www.gotquestions.org/money-debt.html

Edited January 20, 2021 by missmuffet

[appy]

The Zacchaeus passage does not apply to a borrower. Tax collectors were notorious for over charging and skimming money off the top. Thus, Zacchaeus was confessing that he had done so, and was at that point from then on desiring to make things right with those he had cheated as well as with God; He had a change of heart regarding his sin of greed and God's view of it. He voluntarily gave up half his wealth. It wasn't required of him to do so. Tax collectors were extremely wealthy and their wealth ruled their hearts and lives, leaving no room for God. This was the young rich ruler's problem also. His vast wealth left no room in his heart for fellowship with God.

Having to borrow money is not a sin.  It was never God's intention to create a society where indebtedness was a sin.  We see in the Old Testament that God did not outlaw borrowing or lending.  There was an obligation to pay back the loan, yes.  But also a restriction on how long the creditor could keep collecting from the borrower.

It would be a major problem if you were not in need of financial assistance, but took out loans with the intent of never paying the loan back.  There are indeed people that will borrow money (loan from bank, etc.…) so that they can use someone else's money instead of their own.  This is deceitful yes, and banks try to minimize the risks.

The religious leaders of bible times, thought it was more important to tithe  than it was for a man to financially care for his parents and encouraged people to tithe instead of caring for their parents.  Jesus scolded and corrected the religious leaders of the time, because they  considered traditions more important that basic human needs.  They had thrown justice and mercy out the window so to speak.  If you need the money that you have previously set aside for  tithe / charity, but need it to pay your bills or care for your family, you are not obligated to pay what you do not have regarding tithing or charity.

If there is a time that you can, and want to; do so with what you have to share. It isn't wrong to tithe, neither is it wrong to not tithe. God sees your heart and understands your situation more than you know. The same with giving to charity, if you have money in which you can share, and want to... do so. The amount to give is up to you to decide upon. Your attitude and motive weighs more than the “amount to give”.

If you pass away before you can pay off your debt, your estate is responsible for paying any unpaid debts. Your estate’s finances are handled by a personal representative, executor, or administrator. That person pays any debts from the money in your estate. It is a good idea to speak with a lawyer about how your estate will be handled should you pass away before your debts are written off.

 

 

[CaptWalker]

Ok, but what if you end up homeless or without an "estate" to answer for you, as odd as that may sound to the average wealthy Christian who is still pondering whether to even give 10%?? Since i am at home now due to the Covid mess, and have already been threatened that i could end up on the streets if i don't change my attitude, even though i have not physically or verbally threatened anyone else here, but that's another story. If anyone doesn't feel obligated to at least give a tithe then that is between them and God and i am not to judge them. But i personally feel guilty for not doing so, and also for not having a "will" prepared in advance in case i do pass away sooner than i can pay off my debts. And some of us just aren't as socially "savvy" enough to know how to go about getting all this lawyer crap taken care of regarding what is to become of what very little you may have left, if anything??

Edited January 21, 2021 by CaptWalker

[Deborah_]

5 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

Ok, but what if you end up homeless or without an "estate" to answer for you, as odd as that may sound to the average wealthy Christian who is still pondering whether to even give 10%?? Since i am at home now due to the Covid mess, and have already been threatened that i could end up on the streets if i don't change my attitude, even though i have not physically or verbally threatened anyone else here, but that's another story. If anyone doesn't feel obligated to at least give a tithe then that is between them and God and i am not to judge them. But i personally feel guilty for not doing so, and also for not having a "will" prepared in advance in case i do pass away sooner than i can pay off my debts. And some of us just aren't as socially "savvy" enough to know how to go about getting all this lawyer crap taken care of regarding what is to become of what very little you may have left, if anything??

In the context of death and inheritance, your "estate" simply means everything you own at the moment when you die. It doesn't have to include a house or flat, it might be just the clothes you are wearing!

Everyone should make a will - it makes life so much easier for the relations who have to sort your affairs out.  It may be different in the USA, but in this country it's possible to buy a DIY will-making kit and do your own, very cheaply (although it's better to have it checked by a lawyer).