CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION IF YOU DON’T ‘Hold Firmly’?

[Waggles]

1Peter 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. 9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.

God is ever faithful and true and works with us to reach the prize - but we as disciples need to continue in discipleship and to keep the faith and our love of GOD, righteousness and other people (and cats). 

OSAS muddles scriptures pertaining to the faithfulness and work of God and imposes such upon so-called "true" believers and the "truly" saved. But the scriptures that contain many warnings and admonitions on the dangers of falling away or departing from the faith are address to the saints, to the saved. There are no first and second class Christians in the NT. The epistles are specifically to the Spirit-filled church and encourage the saints to keep the faith, to walk in the light, to press on to the high calling, to obtain the prize which is the salvation of our souls. 

2Timothy 2:

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descended from David, as preached in my gospel, 9 the gospel for which I am suffering and wearing fetters like a criminal. But the word of God is not fettered. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure:

If we have died with him, we shall also live with him;
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself

So there is always hope for prodigal children who squander their inheritance but come to their senses and return back to their father - 

BUT tragically there be many that do not return, do not come back to the gospel, remain in the world, get involved in wrong churches, backslide, and so on. When Jesus returns to claim his own will he not deny such who practice again iniquity. 

compare with Titus 2:11-14 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Waggles

[Mike Mclees]

Yes you can and most of the parables of Jesus. one  comes to mind right now that is very striking

 Matthew 24:46-51

⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

⁴⁷ Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

⁴⁸ But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

⁴⁹ And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

⁵⁰ The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

⁵¹ And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  

This is not heaven

Also Jesus said "not all shall enter into the kingdom but those who do the will of the Father."

This answers the OP question. 

I don't know how you can make these agree with OSAS

 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Fine. I am completely open to having the relevance explained to me. If the explanation is rational and reasonable then I will accept it and if not I hope you will recognize the explanation as such and amend your participation accrdingly. 

Yes? 

I would be happy to if that worked out well for us.  So, No. Anyway,   I was just replying to the reply.  And now you have replied to that so hopefully this reply will be the last in this series.

 

 

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I'm a little confused because I explicitly excluded human-centrism and yet everything you've posted is human-centric. If my theo-centrism is agreed with where then is the basis for human-centrism?

Didn't I say most of it?  I thought I did.  If you go check it out please let me know.  
 

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Again I say, "Fine, do please explain your point of disagreement and how or why it is valid and efficacious." Absent such an explanation I am left with the facts in evidence: a disagreement is asserted without explanation even when requested

Yes, I agree and find these things to be very frustrating also, but none the less a common occurrence.    

 

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Hmmmm.... a curious post because neither one of us is the measure of the op. Nor is either one of us the measure of truth or fact. To assert "me" as the veracity given truth that is different for another is to assert subjectivism and I suspect none of us, including you or Riverwalker, will say subjectivism is the approach we should take in answer to this op's question. 

What ever the approach the Holy Spirit leads.  And again, I don't agree.  And please, speak for yourself, not me. BUT heres the really good part 4 me. You speak/write just like my Dad and husband did, God rest their souls.  what are we really here for, the word of God, so stay with the verbose and loquacious using the plethora of words for it is  far better than the invective and laconic of the irascible as I see it.  (And oh how insane he would get at this paragraph, correcting everything from the run on to verbiage, missing words and punctuation, probably some tense problems and all the rest,  as that man loved the laws of language, writers are like that, me, not so much )

Here is a GREAT example for us to follow (and the last verse will tie it all together, and stay in the OP in my opinion anyhow. Yea!!!!).  

 

1Corinthians 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

1Corinthians 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

1Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

1Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

1Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

1Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

1Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Corinthians 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

1Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1Corinthians 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

1Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

How about we use a New Testament example? 

In the book of Revelation there are at least three texts that mention one's name being in or out of the "book of life" (Rev 3, 20 and 22).  

These passages beg a pair of questions:

1) Who is it that meets the stated criteria (are they saved)?

2) Is there an example of such a removal actually happening?

Why do you keep asking me questions you have the answers to? I think the passages beg a pair of answers.  

 

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I will also note the Deuteronomy text is not about salvation from sin. The Law does not save us from sin. Neither does it provide soteriological justification or sanctification; two conditions necessary for salvation from sin. It is true the Jews of Deuteronomy were living within a covenant relationship with God initiated by God only after which were any choices given (I hope we can all agree on those facts) ad it is true the Deuteronomy conditions were a foreshadowing of the conditions found salvifically in Christ but there are very real and substantive exegetical, theological, logical, doctrinal limits to using the non-saved conditions of OT Jews to explain saved conditions of NT Christians so we should take care not to assert false equivalencies.

I don't understand this need to tell me everything you learned in school and how  seeing the Word in that one dimension is correct and me seeing it multi incorrect.

But then again, I do understand.  Some things just can't be helped no matter if we try or not.  It all comes down to the Spiritual guidance, the measure given and where we are on the path.   

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

I agree with you.

I have always adapted OSAS to ORSAS  Once REALLY saved always saved

As you have pointed out in the parable of the sower and the seed, there is a period of time between accepting the word, and taking it in and giving it place to take root.  In that period we are subject to faith abortions,  Salvation is more than mere acceptance, but it is believe and with belief comes actions.

 

But once we take in that seed give it room to root and it starts growing, there is nothing in the word that can uproot it.

I agree.  Once you have been 'captured' God doesn't even have to worry about you falling away from Him.  He has no need to 'grip or hold on' to you because He truly becomes your life in all wishes wants and desires.   For me, it happened in a moment that I would (not from personal experience but from hearing those who have described it) say is like the 1st time shooting up heroin.  It is too wonderful to believe and feels better than anything ever has or you had even dared to imagine.  with the BIG difference being with the word of GOD it DOES GET BETTER every time.  Praise ye the Lord!!!

 

[Riverwalker]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree.  Once you have been 'captured' God doesn't even have to worry about you falling away from Him.  He has no need to 'grip or hold on' to you because He truly becomes your life in all wishes wants and desires.   For me, it happened in a moment that I would (not from personal experience but from hearing those who have described it) say is like the 1st time shooting up heroin.  It is too wonderful to believe and feels better than anything ever has or you had even dared to imagine.  with the BIG difference being with the word of GOD it DOES GET BETTER every time.  Praise ye the Lord!!!

 

I agree, but I think you have to come up with a better analogy

 

 

[Guest clancy]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree.  Once you have been 'captured' God doesn't even have to worry about you falling away from Him.  He has no need to 'grip or hold on' to you because He truly becomes your life in all wishes wants and desires.   For me, it happened in a moment that I would (not from personal experience but from hearing those who have described it) say is like the 1st time shooting up heroin.  It is too wonderful to believe and feels better than anything ever has or you had even dared to imagine.  with the BIG difference being with the word of GOD it DOES GET BETTER every time.  Praise ye the Lord!!!

 

For a start, I don’t believe God worries.?

He certainly has his grip on me....i was also saved...and had the Spirit testify to my spirit that I’m his child.

No disrespect DeighAnn ..your version of the Lord becoming our life, yes.....it’s all like that on first being saved.

its like we’re on honeymoon..........then reality hits after a while.....we are God’s children, we need to be disciplined, we still have the flesh where we are in constant battle with the spirit..I also remember it like this...my will against God’s will....well we all know who will win that battle and it sure wasn’t me.....I’m now in line with God’s will, not my own...He also got me to that place of submission,I did not get there by myself .....it’s a journey with God...it’s not a fairytale....He brings us through with the power of the Holy Spirit that indwells us, that is a hard path to follow....so for me personally,Jesus keeps me on his path...I do not keep    myself.....the amount of times I have cried out to my Father and told him I’ve had enough I can’t do this....I need the Holy Spirit to help me through this Lord I am completely dependent on you....it may not happen straight away, but he hears my cries....” He” picks me up and off we go again on that path....

Its a lot easier now after 30 yrs of being led by him.....but I remember those days of unbearable pain, having my heart broken....I was an unruly child......but he sure got me and keeps me in line now.

Praise His  Holy Name !...??

 

We we are all on our “ OWN” personal journey with the Lord each and everyone of us.

Edited April 3, 2021 by clancy

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, clancy said:

For a start, I don’t believe God worries.?

He certainly has his grip on me....i was also saved...and had the Spirit testify to my spirit that I’m his child.

No disrespect DeighAnn ..your version of the Lord becoming our life, yes.....it’s all like that on first being saved.

its like we’re on honeymoon..........then reality hits after a while.....we are God’s children, we need to be disciplined, we still have the flesh where we are in constant battle with the spirit..I also remember it like this...my will against God’s will....well we all know who will win that battle and it sure wasn’t me.....I’m now in line with God’s will, not my own...He also got me to that place of submission,I did not get there by myself .....it’s a journey with God...it’s not a fairytale....He brings us through with the power of the Holy Spirit that indwells us, that is a hard path to follow....so for me personally,Jesus keeps me on his path...I do not keep    myself.....the amount of times I have cried out to my Father and told him I’ve had enough I can’t do this....I need the Holy Spirit to help me through this Lord I am completely dependent on you....it may not happen straight away, but he hears my cries....” He” picks me up and off we go again on that path....

Its a lot easier now after 30 yrs of being led by him.....but I remember those days of unbearable pain, having my heart broken....I was an unruly child......but he sure got me and keeps me in line now.

Praise His  Holy Name !...??

 

We we are all on our “ OWN” personal journey with the Lord each and everyone of us.

All I can say is 'lucky me' as my honeymoon hasn't ended!! and I don't think it ever will.  Even through the hardest lessons the rewards on the other side have always been worth more than what I thought I had lost.  As long as I stay in the Word and rest in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, I find His leading me to be more satisfying than anything.  I don't think my struggle with the flesh was/is as hard as others experience and in humbling myself before Him I find to be a very comfortable and welcome place.  Without the leading of the Holy Spirit I, like you, would be lost in this world and in His Word. 

I am sorry it was so difficult for you (and maybe it was/is for me too but I just don't look at it that way).  Once I started seeking out His Truth in the Word, the things of this life just seemed to happen in the background, UNLESS I was being stubborn and not learning something I was supposed to be.  (My hardest lesson was discerning good from evil.  I just simply refused to believe both were in this world.  Everyone was good I just needed to find it....  BUT everyone is not, just like God says.  Be wiser than the serpent.....)

So, I agree, the Holy Spirit leads and guides us and convicts us to keep us on the straight and narrow, and without that kind of help there would be little if any chance to walk with the Lord.  

When I find something or someone who makes me lose my peace,  and all of a sudden I realize and stop and refocus, I 'see' as the Holy Spirit giving me a conviction and then a place to focus to get back to where I am supposed to be.  I believe I see that as being lead, myself choosing to be led and I believe you see that as all of the Lords doing and none of your own.  In the end is it different?

Vessels of gold and honor, vessels of wood and dishonor.  So I will ask you as I have asked others 

Will you end up being one or the other depending on how well the Holy Spirit worked or didn't work within you?  Is the outcome out of your hands?  Will the Lord be judging how well HE DID or how well you worked with Him in His leading and guidance?  Cause I don't see Him judging Himself 14 billion times over.  

We are given commands to follow.  We can believe either We do and He helps us or  He does and we do nothing. 
 
If you believe He does it all, how will IT feel,  if indeed, you turn out to be a wooden vessel of dishonor for all eternity?   I don't know how one could reckon that as 'JUST'. 

Our works are the only thing that follows us.  Are they ours or are they His?  If they are His then what is the point of us?  I believe God created us for His pleasure, not for Him to see how well He can please Himself through us. 

But that is just my belief and I understand we believe differently from each other.  I have had others try to explain to me the 'HE DOES IT ALL' and I don't understand that approach at all.   But who knows, I may be the one to walk away a crispy critter, but I rest assure in that I am going to have all my scriptures all in a row to back it all up and I will also have put in many many hours pondering it.  

All Glory and Thanks be to the Lord Almighty!!! 

 

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

I agree, but I think you have to come up with a better analogy

 

 

YES, but have you heard one?  I am all ears.  That heroin seems to capture them from the first moment and their lives change from that moment on.    I found that to be as close a description to what I experienced when I sat down and got into the Word.  It literally took over my entire being as all I wanted, needed, thought about, spent my time on, the whole nine yards.  This world almost disappeared.  

So help me out, PLEASE because I know how terrible it sounds.  

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Wonderful post but whether God "needs" to hold us or not He does. 

John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;  and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." 

Numbers 6:24-26
"The LORD bless you, and keep you;  The LORD make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you;  The LORD lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.'"

Psalm 121:5-8
"The LORD is your keeper; The LORD is your shade on your right hand.  The sun will not smite you by day, Nor the moon by night.  The LORD will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul.  The LORD will guard your going out and your coming in From this time forth and forever."

Psalm 139:7-12
"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?  If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.  If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,  Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.  If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"  Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You."

Isaiah 27:2-3
"In that day, 'A vineyard of wine, sing of it!  'I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.'" 

Isaiah 41:13
"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'" 

Psalm 73:21-26
"When my heart was embittered And I was pierced within,  Then I was senseless and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.  Nevertheless I am continually with You; You have taken hold of my right hand.  With Your counsel You will guide me, And afterward receive me to glory.  Whom have I in heaven but You? And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.  My flesh and my heart may fail, But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." 

Romans 6:17-18
"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,  and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

When we rely on God's hold we need not worry about our own hold. The scriptures are filled with verses directing us to hold firm but every single one of them exists within - not outside of or in addition to - within the context of God's sovereign and almighty purpose. 

 

We are to rely on the Word, the wisdom and knowledge and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Does anyone here think that any of this is outside of God's sovereign and almighty purpose?  


2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 
(if we are in Gods GRIP, HOW DO we then become in the clutches of iniquity?)
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself 
(why would a man need to purge himself how could he have gotten to that place while firmly in Gods grasp?) 
from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.  Flee also youthful lusts:
(does HIS grip allow us to follow youthful lusts) 
but follow
(who is to follow?)
righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.  
(who is calling?)
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive
(the servant must not strive and if the Holy Spirit were DOING EVERYTHING how is it the servant ever could strive?)
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I believe that WE are going to be held responsible and judged for who we are, how we labored (which includes everything), and how we allowed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us which brings about all the promises of God in our lives. (the rest of the scriptures given) 

I believe the other way it is seen, is to believe that God does it all for us once we are saved and past that there is nothing done on our part and no matter what we think or feel doesn't matter because God is faithful. 

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

[Riverwalker]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

YES, but have you heard one?  I am all ears.  That heroin seems to capture them from the first moment and their lives change from that moment on.    I found that to be as close a description to what I experienced when I sat down and got into the Word.  It literally took over my entire being as all I wanted, needed, thought about, spent my time on, the whole nine yards.  This world almost disappeared.  

So help me out, PLEASE because I know how terrible it sounds.  

I have never experienced heroin. But I would liken being saved to a butterfly escaping its cocoon. Free, and able to fly. My old crawling fuzzy existence is gone