Walking in the Spirit

[SwordMaster]

5 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.

 

Again, this is not what Scripture teaches when we take it as a whole. Taking this and that passage alone when there are a plethora of passages that address the issue, is not how its done (not done right, anyway).

This death is addressed by the grammar of the Greek text as being figurative, NOT literal. Your sin nature does NOT die...if it did, then Paul is a liar by writing Romans chapter 7 where he says that you WILL fight sin for the rest of your life, unless you make it to the point of walking in the Spirit and the motions of the sinful flesh are subdued by the Spirit.

What you say above is in direct opposition to what the Scriptures as a whole teach.

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[Paul James]

6 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

 

I used to think so...but few of the suggestions made so far work according to Romans 8:13 in mortifying the motions (deeds) of the flesh. 

If all of the answers people have given so far were accurate, and the full answer, then practically everyone posting should not be hampered or falling to sin, yet would anyone say that this is true of themselves?

If just walking in obedience to God mortified the motions of the sinful flesh, then why do we still struggle with sin? Obedience can't be the answer...not in its fullness, anyway.

I believe Scripture is true, therefore walking in the Spirit, according to the Holy Spirit writing through Paul, eventually mortifies the deeds of the flesh...which means according to the Greek, that walking in the Spirit renders the motions of sin in the flesh ineffective against the one who is walking in the flesh. In other words, it isn't me keeping myself from a sinful action being motivated by the flesh - it is that the Spirit deadens those motions to the point that we know we are being attacked by sin, but that it doesn't have the power over us that it would normally have.

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In a previous post I brought up what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit anointing Him.  I equated it with walking in the Spirit.   It is interesting that Jesus mentioned nothing about mortifying the deeds of the flesh.  In fact, He made it fairly clear that His anointing did not lead to any kind of spiritual self-improvement at all.  It was more the Holy Spirit working through Him for others.  Instead of being inward looking, or "navel gazing", He was more outward looking.  Here is the reference:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free" (Luke 4:18).

So, when Jesus walked in the Spirit, He preached the gospel to the poor, proclaimed freedom for prisoners of the devil, sight for those blinded to the gospel, and those oppressed of the devil to be set free.   He demonstrated that through His ministry, as He healed the sick and cast out demons.   He healed a disabled woman, saying "Shouldn't she be released from the oppression of the devil which she has suffered for the last 15 years?"

Seeing that we should follow the example of Paul who desired that we should follow him because he follows Christ, then his ministry would have been modelled on the same anointing that Jesus had, which he demonstrated in the many pagans he turned to Christ, the many miracles that happened during his ministry, and the many churches he planted.

I don't think that many of us actually follow Paul or Jesus in how they were anointed, and walked in the Spirit.   I believe that when believers truly walk in the Spirit, people around them get saved, healed, and demons get cast out.  Fellow believers are edified, comforted, and exhorted, and their faith in Christ is stimulated as they use the tools provided to the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

But instead, we have people being more concerned about their own spiritual state and whether they are loving enough.  Even godless religious hypocrites can manifest all the fruit of the Spirit, but they can't get anyone genuinely converted to Christ, healed of any sickness of disability, or get a demon cast out of someone oppressed by the devil.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that through a believer's ministry, and He is no fool.   He is able to see into the hearts of people, and He knows those who are genuinely Christ's.

So, if a believer is going to be a true representative of Christ, then he or she needs to have the same anointing that Christ had, and He made it very clear what that anointing is all about.

[Paul James]

41 minutes ago, SwordMaster said:

 

I see what you are saying, but I don't see that in Scripture...

 

Ephesians 4:22-24   that you are to turn away from your former behavior and way of life, from the old man of sin that corrupts you spiritually through the lusts of deceitful propensities that seduce to sin, and lead to disappointment; and that you be in a continual state of spiritual renewal in the disposition of your mind, which God works in us as we practice righteousness and true holiness, enabling us to put on the new man.

 

This is a translation straight from the Greek and its grammar. Paul says that we renew our own minds as we practice righteousness and holiness (the two sides of the coin of obedience), which makes perfect sense. In any kind of physical training, the more you do something, the more it affects your reflexes and muscle memory, the better you are at what you are practicing. The more we practice righteousness and holiness, the more our mind is trained for godliness...the more our minds are molded into the 'image' (if you will) of godliness which directly affects our attitudes and behavior.

 

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This is what developmental sanctification is all about.

[Paul James]

5 hours ago, Peterlag said:

 

I don't see what you see. I am walking in the spirit because it's who I am. The old is gone. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ.

 

The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

 

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real.

 

So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once a person is in Christ.

What you have described is not actually walking in the Spirit.   You have described conversion to Christ, which is the entrance point.   If this is where you are at right now, then you have only just got through the gate, and the rest of your pilgrimage is still in front of you.   Here is what the Scripture says:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" (Hebrews 6:1).

While you are still loitering at the entrance gate, you are still just a babe in Christ still requiring milk instead of the real meat of the Word.   Hebrews goes on to say:

"For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil" (Hebrews 5:13-14).

There is the process of turning an infant convert into a disciple.  It takes training, subject to trusted mentors in the body of Christ, study of God's Word, development in prayer and fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, building up your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, making your calling and election sure.  These will be the evidence that the seed of the Word that is planted in you has fallen on good ground and not on shallow soil which causes a person to spring up all religious for a while and then when persecution and problems arise, whither away and backslide back into the world.

[steve morrow]

IS  DISOBEDIENCE  WALKING  IN  THE  SPIRIT  

ACTS 1:1  the former treatise have I made O theophilus of all that  JESUS  began both to do and teach  --1:2-- until the the day in which  HE  was taken up after that  HE  through the holy spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom  HE  had chosen 

JOHN 12:49  FOR  I  HAVE  NOT  SPOKEN  OF  MYSELF  BUT  --THE  FATHER--  WHICH  SENT  ME  HE  GAVE  ME  A  COMMANDMENT WHAT ---I  SHOULD  SAY  AND  WHAT  I  SHOULD  SPEAK---

--12:50  AND  I  KNOW  THAT  HIS  COMMANDMENT  IS  LIFE  EVERLASTING  --- WHATSOEVER  I  SPEAK --- THEREFORE --- EVEN  AS  THE  FATHER  SAID  UNTO  ME  SO  I  SPEAK

 

JOHN 3:35  THE  FATHER  LOVETH  THE  SON  AND  HATH  GIVEN  ALL  THINGS  INTO  HIS  HAND  

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth --THE  FLESH  PROFITETH  NOTHING-- the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5  for though there be that are called gods whether in heaven or in earth as there be gods many and lords many  --8:6-- BUT  TO  US -- there is but one --GOD  THE  FATHER--of whom are all things and we in  HIM  and one --LORD  JESUS  CHRIST-- by whom are all things and we by  HIM

 

HEBREWS 2:8  thou hast put all things in subjection under  HIS  feet for in that  HE  put all in subjection under  HIM  HE  left --NO  THING-- that is not put under  HIM  but now we see not yet all things put under  HIM

 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:8  AND  THEN  SHALL  THAT  WICKED  BE  REVEALED  WHOM  THE  LORD  SHALL  CONSUME  WITH  --THE  SPIRIT  OF  HIS  MOUTH-- AND  SHALL  DESTROY  WITH  THE  BRIGHTNESS  OF  HIS  COMING 

1 TIMOTHY 2:5  FOR  THERE  IS  ONE  GOD  AND --ONE  MEDIATOR-- BETWEEN  GOD  AND  MEN  -----THE  MAN  JESUS  CHRIST-----

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[Peterlag]

14 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

 

There are a number of issues here with what Scripture actually teaches us, Peterlag, but I don't have time to get into them all. The ONLY thing that changes according to Scripture when a person gets saved, referencing his nature, is that now he is no longer just a man, he is a man with the Holy Spirit indwelling him.

This is what the "new nature" is all about if you study the subject carefully...it does NOT mean that YOU changed significantly in any other way. The "old man" is the old man that used to practice sin, but is now not supposed to be, but YOU as you didn't change...that isn't what Scripture teaches. 

If the old self was "entirely obliterated" then you would not be here talking about it...because you place what is spoken of in figurative language as meaning literally, and in that there are a number of other problems.

 

Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to show you where what you claimed is not according to Scripture when it is taken as a whole.

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I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Peterlag]

13 hours ago, Paul James said:

What you have described is not actually walking in the Spirit.   You have described conversion to Christ, which is the entrance point.   If this is where you are at right now, then you have only just got through the gate, and the rest of your pilgrimage is still in front of you.   Here is what the Scripture says:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" (Hebrews 6:1).

While you are still loitering at the entrance gate, you are still just a babe in Christ still requiring milk instead of the real meat of the Word.   Hebrews goes on to say:

"For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil" (Hebrews 5:13-14).

There is the process of turning an infant convert into a disciple.  It takes training, subject to trusted mentors in the body of Christ, study of God's Word, development in prayer and fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, building up your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, making your calling and election sure.  These will be the evidence that the seed of the Word that is planted in you has fallen on good ground and not on shallow soil which causes a person to spring up all religious for a while and then when persecution and problems arise, whither away and backslide back into the world.

You bring up a great point which may be why I'm not understood. I'm teaching meat to many who are still on the milk. I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Not me]

It seems to me that since scripture says that the Galatians began in the Spirit all one would have to do is figure out what they did at first to understand what the phrase ‘in the Spirit’ was meant to portray...

A fellow believer, Not me  

[Paul James]

38 minutes ago, Josheb said:

If it was destroyed how then do the NT writers still write about it?

The idea of a "sin nature" is a misnomer.  Before conversion to Christ our nature was totally sinful and followed the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5.  When conversion took place we received a new heart and spirit and had the righteousness of Christ bestowed as a free gift from God.  Along with that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.  Therefore we started to live in the Spirit as described in Galatians 5.

But we still have our physical bodies still blighted by sin and condemned to die.  Paul called it "the flesh".   He says that those who walk in the flesh, that is, according to the demands of our physical bodies, we cannot please God.  He says that seeing that we live in the Spirit, we should walk in the Spirit.   Paul says that there is nothing good in him, that is in his flesh.   This is what people mistakenly call the sin nature.  But there is no two natures fighting for supremacy in us.  Paul never taught that.   He says that the conflict is between the Spirit and our flesh.

 

[OneLight]

42 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

You bring up a great point which may be why I'm not understood. I'm teaching meat to many who are still on the milk.  I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

By telling people they cannot understand you because you are speaking above them does not show the humility that come through the new man created in a believer, but the ego of the old man, the flesh.

By reviewing only the last couple of posts you make, you do not seem to address how we must live in this flesh until we die, and that the old man, which is in the flesh, continues to live also; nor did I see where you say that we must continue to take up our cross daily in order to walk in the Spirit.

Both Colossians 3 and Galatians 5 address this.