Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Peterlag]

15 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

(Galatians 3:27): For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 

Is this verse teaching that anyone who is literally baptized in a local congregation  will " put on ( be clothed in) Christ"? 

Nay. Only God's chosen have been baptized ( spiritually washed) by the Holy Spirit:

".....He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit...." (Mt. 3:11).

I was baptized once when Christ came in. No water is needed. Christ did it all.

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Can you explain or elaborate on why water baptism is both a commandment and a sacrament!

We are commanded to be baptised in water and the Holy Spirit to become Christians (disciples of Christ Jesus) in the gospels, Acts and the epistles.

Numerous verses attest to this.

Water baptism is most definitely a sacrament in the spiritual sense - an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual grace; a solemn religious ceremony enjoined by Christ, to be observed by His followers [communion service is another example].

Luke 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, Waggles said:

We are commanded to be baptised in water and the Holy Spirit to become Christians (disciples of Christ Jesus) in the gospels, Acts and the epistles.

Numerous verses attest to this.

Water baptism is most definitely a sacrament in the spiritual sense - an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual grace; a solemn religious ceremony enjoined by Christ, to be observed by His followers [communion service is another example].

Luke 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I don’t see anything telling us we must be baptized in water- the Holy Spirit Yes!

I am sure you have understood what Jesus meant when He told the Pharisees they hold to traditions and rituals and not the “spirit “ of the Word.

The RCC has done just that for so many years. They have adopted rituals and practices and requirements- some / maybe many directly from the pagan practices they brought into the church. Water baptism, confirmation,  wafer, idols, praying to the dead, purgatory, confession to a priest, on and on and on!

It is a visible sign- but only to man! God has told us to be baptized in the Holy Spirit not a ritual that symbolizes a sign... 

You say it is a solemn religious ceremony- yes, you are right- YOU say it is and it is only because you say it is. You can label ANY practice as solemn or religious or required or holy .. same as the Pharisees- none of these things will get you to heaven or have been told to keep by God. 

They make you feel like you are accomplishing something “religious” and you may think they are being counted and are being written down to support your candidacy for salvation but it is works and paganism. 

How is it an outward and visible sign for inward and spiritual sense when a baby is baptized? 

Only God knows what is in our heart and He knows if we have have been baptized in His Holy Spirit— But man still wants to impress other man with these outward practices and rituals. 

Unfortunately, the Pharisees were guilty of this, the RCC (little horn) picked it right back up when they came to power, and most of their offspring (denominations) still keep one or more of these outward practices... 

My thoughts only, Charlie 

 

[Waggles]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

How is it an outward and visible sign for inward and spiritual sense when a baby is baptized? 

Those of us who correctly obey the word of God do not sprinkle babies or very young children. 

Sprinkling is not baptism. Babies have little to repent of except being demanding  on their parents.

People must repent from their walking in the flesh; their wrongdoings. Repentance is the first step > seeking to be right with the God of salvation. 

In the NT babies are not baptised only people (mostly adults) of an age of understanding. One must be able to repent. 

Water baptism by full immersion is a sacrament (a ceremony held before others in the church) for a new convert to display their first acts of obedience to God's commandments on what must be done. It is also spiritual and mandated by Jesus himself as required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Even Jesus himself underwent full immersion baptism to show his followers this is the way; and then Jesus is also baptised in the Holy Spirit. This is what disciples still need to do to become true worshippers and true Christians (Romans 6 and 8).

1Peter 3:20  because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 
21  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 

[Charlie744]

14 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Those of us who correctly obey the word of God do not sprinkle babies or very young children. 

Sprinkling is not baptism. Babies have little to repent of except being demanding  on their parents.

People must repent from their walking in the flesh; their wrongdoings. Repentance is the first step > seeking to be right with the God of salvation. 

In the NT babies are not baptised only people (mostly adults) of an age of understanding. One must be able to repent. 

Water baptism by full immersion is a sacrament (a ceremony held before others in the church) for a new convert to display their first acts of obedience to God's commandments on what must be done. It is also spiritual and mandated by Jesus himself as required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Even Jesus himself underwent full immersion baptism to show his followers this is the way; and then Jesus is also baptised in the Holy Spirit. This is what disciples still need to do to become true worshippers and true Christians (Romans 6 and 8).

1Peter 3:20  because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 
21  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 

Well, I guess we will simply agree to disagree.

 I will say one final thing: Jesus did NOT say we are to be baptized in water- He did say we MUST be baptized in the Holy Spirit... I am going to go with Him on this !  Man can adopt all the “solemn ceremonies” it wants to or feels a need to for their salvation... it is just pagan works!

Oh... why on God’s green earth would your water baptism be considered a “solemn religious ceremony”? 

Solemn?

Religious?

Ceremony?

These 3 speak volumes... Charlie 

[Arrabon]

23 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Oh... why on God’s green earth would your water baptism be considered a “solemn religious ceremony”?

In the right circle, it's just considered an act of faith for salvation, but that circle is getting smaller and smaller as time passes.

Matthew 7 :14, "For the Gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life and "FEW" are those who find it.

Luke 13 :23-24, "And someone said to Jesus, "Lord, are there just a "FEW" who are being saved?" And Jesus said to them. "Strive to enter by the narrow door,; for many I tell you will seek to enter , and not be able."

 

If you find your belief among the majority, and not among the "FEW IN FAITH," you might want to rethink a FEW things.

 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

In the right circle, it's just considered an act of faith for salvation, but that circle is getting smaller and smaller as time passes.

Matthew 7 :14, "For the Gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life and "FEW" are those who find it.

Luke 13 :23-24, "And someone said to Jesus, "Lord, are there just a "FEW" who are being saved?" And Jesus said to them. "Strive to enter by the narrow door,; for many I tell you will seek to enter , and not be able."

 

If you find your belief among the majority, and not among the "FEW IN FAITH," you might want to rethink a FEW things.

 

Forgive me for being confused but I would rather have a good understanding of your thoughts... are you saying that those who believe in a water baptism represent the few who will be saved?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Arrabon]

27 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Forgive me for being confused but I would rather have a good understanding of your thoughts... are you saying that those who believe in a water baptism represent the few who will be saved?

 Thank you, Charlie 

YES & NO! To me the topic isn't about the individual, but about the process that the individual chooses.- BIG DIFFERENCE.

YES if the person chooses water baptism for all the right reasons, and continues on the path Jesus sets forth for all of us in scripture.

NO, if the person decides after baptism to start following a different path that is opposed to Gods word, but is so prolific that most take the "BROAD PATH - Matthew 7 ;13, including the BAPTIZED for the wrong reason.

Water baptism to me is the right choice for salvation, but that's not where choices end, it's where they begin!

Being saved isn't an event, it's a process that lasts a lifetime, and can be given up anytime a believer walks away from God, or chooses a doctrine that opposes Gods teachings, and decides to follow the teachings of false doctrines - FREE WILL.

My name is Arrabon

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Arrabon

[Waggles]

why do people keep on reinventing Christian doctrine?

Water baptism is the only sacrament kept by various churches from the very beginning: Roman, Orthodox and Protestant.

Alright infant "baptism" came about, most likely in response to the bubonic plagues (where one-third of Europe's population died), but it is still a continuation of the doctrine of water baptism from the Apostolic age. 

Now out of nowhere modern churches are claiming that they can do away with water baptism as it is no longer necessary.

Did anyone bother to check this out with God and to seek his approval of such? I think not. 

Galatians 5:7  You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 
8  This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 
9  A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 

2Corinthians 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

YES & NO! To me the topic isn't about the individual, but about the process that the individual chooses.- BIG DIFFERENCE.

YES if the person chooses water baptism for all the right reasons, and continues on the path Jesus sets forth for all of us in scripture.

NO, if the person decides after baptism to start following a different path that is opposed to Gods word, but is so prolific that most take the "BROAD PATH - Matthew 7 ;13, including the BAPTIZED for the wrong reason.

Water baptism to me is the right choice for salvation, but that's not where choices end, it's where they begin!

Being saved isn't an event, it's a process that lasts a lifetime, and can be given up anytime a believer walks away from God, or chooses a doctrine that opposes Gods teachings, and decides to follow the teachings of false doctrines - FREE WILL.

My name is Arrabon

 

Thank you Arrabon! I certainly agree with much of your comments but not the one regarding the need or value for a water baptism. Now, if you substitute water baptism for baptism of the Holy Spirit then we are in agreement. 

We are born of water (physically at birth), but spiritually by the Holy Spirit. One gets us into the world and the other into Heaven. 

For me, there is no value in a ceremony or ritual no matter how many folks think it shows our acceptance of God- that is no different than one attending church each week and then watching sports the rest of the day or heading out to shop... meaningless exercise. 

Only God knows our heart and whether we have brought His Holy Spirit within us- no external display to others is important. How many times did He tell us He hated the “traditions” of men? 

Again, just my opinion, Charlie