Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Peterlag]

56 minutes ago, OneLight said:

You are putting Jesus in a very small box with your theology.  Do you think His words were not meant for all who are His?  Tell me, do you think scripture from Acts to Revelations are the only part of the Bible meant for today?

I learn a lot from the gospels but do not believe it was written to me. And I don't consider Revelation to be part of the Christian Bible. It deals mostly with Israel right down to the candle sticks and all such Jewish concepts.

[Peterlag]

57 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Cherry picking scripture to fit your theology is a sure sign of weakness and/or false teaching.  Water baptism is mentioned in other verses, which you are ignoring.  My question to you is why are you ignoring scripture that does speak of water baptism that the Apostles did perform? 

Water baptism is not taught in the Christian Bible. To not look at the Old Testament for Christian concepts is not cherry picking. It's called knowing how to read that part of the Bible that is written to the Christian. For some odd reason many Christians think the whole Bible is written to them and I have no idea why they think that.

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

I learn a lot from the gospels but do not believe it was written to me. And I don't consider Revelation to be part of the Christian Bible. It deals mostly with Israel right down to the candle sticks and all such Jewish concepts.

Peter.... please tell me / us your joking!!!!!!

You not anyone can or should add or subtract even one jot from HIS Word. 

You may not agree or like things in the Scriptures but it is not for you / us to decide if Revelation is a writing from God. 

I have not completed my study of Daniel at this time, and I have NOT yet attempted to even begin to understand Revelation but from the little I think I see in Revelation, it is a tremendous summary or composition of everything ... 

I hope you might give Revelation your attention and study... as you know it is HIS final Word to us before His second coming.... it MUST be so important!

Charlie

[Peterlag]

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Peter.... please tell me / us your joking!!!!!!

You not anyone can or should add or subtract even one jot from HIS Word. 

You may not agree or like things in the Scriptures but it is not for you / us to decide if Revelation is a writing from God. 

I have not completed my study of Daniel at this time, and I have NOT yet attempted to even begin to understand Revelation but from the little I think I see in Revelation, it is a tremendous summary or composition of everything ... 

I hope you might give Revelation your attention and study... as you know it is HIS final Word to us before His second coming.... it MUST be so important!

Charlie

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

To rightly understand the Word of God, one must understand what part is written to the Church of God and what part is written for the learning of the Church. Every word from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, is written for our learning. However, not all of the words from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, are addressed to us.

We must learn to distinguish not only the various people, but also the different time periods God has spoken to if we want to understand the written Word of God. The time God spoke to the children of Israel is not the same time period He has spoken to us. The time He spoke to the prophets in the time of the Old Testament is not the same time period He spoke to His Son Jesus Christ in the time of the gospels.

The different time periods in the Bible are called dispensations. The Greek word for “dispensation” is “oikonomia” meaning the act of administering. The word “o’kos” means house, and “nemo” means to dispense, to weigh or deal out, as a steward or housekeeper. Therefore, the word was used to manage or administrate a household. The word is used three times in Luke 16:2-4, where it's translated “stewardship.” In four other places it's translated “dispensation.” I like the word administration because it communicates very well with our current English language. We must understand these administrations have  different time periods in the Bible and each have their own beginning and their own ending—with the exception of the last one.

The first is called the Paradise administration. It was the time of innocence, the time before the fall that ends with Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden of the original paradise.

The second is the Patriarchal administration. It was the time after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given. This second administration ended with the coming of the Law to Moses.

The third is the Legal administration. It's suited only to Israel under the Law, and is sometimes called the Mosaic Law that terminated when Jesus Christ died.

The fourth is the Christ administration that overlapped and functioned within the Law administration. Both the Law and the Christ administration officially ended with the coming of Pentecost.

The fifth started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the second chapter of the book of Acts. This is the present administration of Grace that is for the Church of God. It's the time period you and I now belong to because it's the Grace administration, without any distinction made between the Jew and the Gentile, which will end with the appearing of Jesus Christ.

The sixth begins with the appearing of Jesus Christ, and the gathering together of the saints. Believe it or not, this administration ends with Satan destroyed, and the great white throne judgment.

The seventh is the Glory or Paradise administration, which will not have an ending.

Administrations must be adapted to the time periods in which they are carried out. The administration with Adam before the fall was different from the one with his immediate family after the fall. The administration with Israel “under the law” was carried out on different principles from the present administration of Grace. This present administration is different from the one that will characterize the return of Christ. The administration of Judgment will be different from the one that will belong to the administration of Glory, when all things shall be gathered together in one under the headship of Christ.

We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we neglect to rightly divide the subject matter. As far as we are concerned in this Grace administration, what happened to Israel in the Old Testament was written for our learning. If we do not rightly divide to whom it's addressed—the Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God, we will use one truth to contradict another truth, and we will use what is true for one group in contrast to what is also true for another group.

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.

From the eighth chapter of the book of Romans, it's written to those who live in this present Grace administration, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” and “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

From the sixth chapter of the book of Deuteronomy, it was written to those who lived under the Law administration, “it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.” However, from the third chapter of the book of Romans, it's written to those who live in this present Grace administration, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.” What was written to those who lived under the Law administration is the complete opposite of what is written to us who live under the Grace administration.

We will always be in darkness and confusion regarding the truth of God’s Word if we do not understand the different administrations in the Bible. All hope for our redemption is in Jesus Christ, who was born into this world, died, and in the resurrection he became the head of a new creation. The living resurrected Christ Jesus has become the one great subject that occupies the Word of God that the church belongs to. It's this Christ Jesus that is the key to the divine revelation in the Word of God for this our Grace administration. The contents of the New Testament must be understood in reference to Christ Jesus our Lord because the doctrine and nature of God for this our Grace administration are centered in His Christ.

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

To rightly understand the Word of God, one must understand what part is written to the Church of God and what part is written for the learning of the Church. Every word from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, is written for our learning. However, not all of the words from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, are addressed to us.

We must learn to distinguish not only the various people, but also the different time periods God has spoken to if we want to understand the written Word of God. The time God spoke to the children of Israel is not the same time period He has spoken to us. The time He spoke to the prophets in the time of the Old Testament is not the same time period He spoke to His Son Jesus Christ in the time of the gospels.

The different time periods in the Bible are called dispensations. The Greek word for “dispensation” is “oikonomia” meaning the act of administering. The word “o’kos” means house, and “nemo” means to dispense, to weigh or deal out, as a steward or housekeeper. Therefore, the word was used to manage or administrate a household. The word is used three times in Luke 16:2-4, where it's translated “stewardship.” In four other places it's translated “dispensation.” I like the word administration because it communicates very well with our current English language. We must understand these administrations have  different time periods in the Bible and each have their own beginning and their own ending—with the exception of the last one.

The first is called the Paradise administration. It was the time of innocence, the time before the fall that ends with Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden of the original paradise.

The second is the Patriarchal administration. It was the time after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given. This second administration ended with the coming of the Law to Moses.

The third is the Legal administration. It's suited only to Israel under the Law, and is sometimes called the Mosaic Law that terminated when Jesus Christ died.

The fourth is the Christ administration that overlapped and functioned within the Law administration. Both the Law and the Christ administration officially ended with the coming of Pentecost.

The fifth started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the second chapter of the book of Acts. This is the present administration of Grace that is for the Church of God. It's the time period you and I now belong to because it's the Grace administration, without any distinction made between the Jew and the Gentile, which will end with the appearing of Jesus Christ.

The sixth begins with the appearing of Jesus Christ, and the gathering together of the saints. Believe it or not, this administration ends with Satan destroyed, and the great white throne judgment.

The seventh is the Glory or Paradise administration, which will not have an ending.

Administrations must be adapted to the time periods in which they are carried out. The administration with Adam before the fall was different from the one with his immediate family after the fall. The administration with Israel “under the law” was carried out on different principles from the present administration of Grace. This present administration is different from the one that will characterize the return of Christ. The administration of Judgment will be different from the one that will belong to the administration of Glory, when all things shall be gathered together in one under the headship of Christ.

We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we neglect to rightly divide the subject matter. As far as we are concerned in this Grace administration, what happened to Israel in the Old Testament was written for our learning. If we do not rightly divide to whom it's addressed—the Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God, we will use one truth to contradict another truth, and we will use what is true for one group in contrast to what is also true for another group.

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.

From the eighth chapter of the book of Romans, it's written to those who live in this present Grace administration, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” and “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

From the sixth chapter of the book of Deuteronomy, it was written to those who lived under the Law administration, “it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.” However, from the third chapter of the book of Romans, it's written to those who live in this present Grace administration, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.” What was written to those who lived under the Law administration is the complete opposite of what is written to us who live under the Grace administration.

We will always be in darkness and confusion regarding the truth of God’s Word if we do not understand the different administrations in the Bible. All hope for our redemption is in Jesus Christ, who was born into this world, died, and in the resurrection he became the head of a new creation. The living resurrected Christ Jesus has become the one great subject that occupies the Word of God that the church belongs to. It's this Christ Jesus that is the key to the divine revelation in the Word of God for this our Grace administration. The contents of the New Testament must be understood in reference to Christ Jesus our Lord because the doctrine and nature of God for this our Grace administration are centered in His Christ.

Thank you Peter for taking the time to present your thoughts on this.... clearly you have deep thoughts and opinions on the Scriptures..... In my mind I can find absolutely NO reason to try and carve up the Scriptures in a or any way that might help us understand them.... Some simply consider just a two part Scripture of the Old and the New Testaments. I have even heard of some folks who contend their is no reason to consider the OT  - it has no bearing or meaning to us but only to those living before the Cross (some say just for the Jews alone). Now we are also quite able to see folks much earlier even within the OT itself - where the Sadducees only believe the Torah is God inspired while the Pharisees honor the Tanakh. 

For me, once ANYONE decides or determines what book, what chapter or what verse does or does not belong or is relevant to ANY individual at ANY time in history is indeed simply judging HIS Word and ITS relevance to HIS children based on some or even one of man's criteria. Clay judging the Potter here?.

Carve up the Scriptures as detailed as you like; by subject matter, by ethnicity, by time, by spiritual message, by conflicts, by kings or kingdoms, etc. If any divisions or compartmentalization is needed to learn and understand HIS Word...... perfect. But I can assure you that EVERY word or story or message - even those stories identified in Daniel are from God and have a message and purpose for our salvation.

God does not do random, or coincidence or simply use fillers in between His more interesting or prophetic stories in the Scriptures - EVERY WORD OF GOD HAS A PURPOSE AND A MESSAGE DIRECTLY FROM HIS MIND THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE INTERPRETED CORRECTLY BY US......

The stories in the OT Jews  - say the Passover period, or the time of King David or Noah or Samuel....... don't you find important messages in all of them? They speak about Israel specifically but certainly about mankind. And there is not one verse in the Bible that does NOT tell us something about HIM..... His creation, His mercy, His judgement, His patience, His love, His disappointment, and on and on. 

Seriously, can you really hear yourself say that there is something presented in the Bible, whether in Genesis through Revelation that is NOT valuable or gemane or inspired ?  I will bet you have found so much in the Scriptures to this day...... this Bible, HIS Scriptures are miles deep and wide and TIME and PLACE have absolutely NO effect on HIS Word, 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Peterlag]

28 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Peter for taking the time to present your thoughts on this.... clearly you have deep thoughts and opinions on the Scriptures..... In my mind I can find absolutely NO reason to try and carve up the Scriptures in a or any way that might help us understand them.... Some simply consider just a two part Scripture of the Old and the New Testaments. I have even heard of some folks who contend their is no reason to consider the OT  - it has no bearing or meaning to us but only to those living before the Cross (some say just for the Jews alone). Now we are also quite able to see folks much earlier even within the OT itself - where the Sadducees only believe the Torah is God inspired while the Pharisees honor the Tanakh. 

For me, once ANYONE decides or determines what book, what chapter or what verse does or does not belong or is relevant to ANY individual at ANY time in history is indeed simply judging HIS Word and ITS relevance to HIS children based on some or even one of man's criteria. Clay judging the Potter here?.

Carve up the Scriptures as detailed as you like; by subject matter, by ethnicity, by time, by spiritual message, by conflicts, by kings or kingdoms, etc. If any divisions or compartmentalization is needed to learn and understand HIS Word...... perfect. But I can assure you that EVERY word or story or message - even those stories identified in Daniel are from God and have a message and purpose for our salvation.

God does not do random, or coincidence or simply use fillers in between His more interesting or prophetic stories in the Scriptures - EVERY WORD OF GOD HAS A PURPOSE AND A MESSAGE DIRECTLY FROM HIS MIND THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE INTERPRETED CORRECTLY BY US......

The stories in the OT Jews  - say the Passover period, or the time of King David or Noah or Samuel....... don't you find important messages in all of them? They speak about Israel specifically but certainly about mankind. And there is not one verse in the Bible that does NOT tell us something about HIM..... His creation, His mercy, His judgement, His patience, His love, His disappointment, and on and on. 

Seriously, can you really hear yourself say that there is something presented in the Bible, whether in Genesis through Revelation that is NOT valuable or gemane or inspired ?  I will bet you have found so much in the Scriptures to this day...... this Bible, HIS Scriptures are miles deep and wide and TIME and PLACE have absolutely NO effect on HIS Word, 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

Okay let's forget about water baptism for a minute and let's look at circumcision. Should we still obey it because it's written all over the Old Testament that you say is God's Word? If so then Paul in Galatians needs to be torn out of the Bible.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Peterlag

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Peterlag said:

Okay let's forget about water baptism for a minute and let's look at circumcision. Should we still obey it because it's written all over the Old Testament that you say is God's Word? If so then Paul in Galatians needs to be torn out of the Bible.

Well I certainly am no expert by ANY means, but my thoughts on to be circumcised is / should be no different than any other issue or topic in the Scriptures. 

It had a spiritual component in the time of Moses and a show of separation of His people from all other peoples on earth. It was a physical act pointing forward to something greater - a type and shadow. 

After the cross we are indeed separated from all others if we obey God and Jesus as our Messiah. But we are now circumcised of the heart- we are spiritually different, separated and now belong and are identified with Christ. 

I believe both are intertwined and speak the same message... Charlie 

 

[Peterlag]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Well I certainly am no expert by ANY means, but my thoughts on to be circumcised is / should be no different than any other issue or topic in the Scriptures. 

It had a spiritual component in the time of Moses and a show of separation of His people from all other peoples on earth. It was a physical act pointing forward to something greater - a type and shadow. 

After the cross we are indeed separated from all others if we obey God and Jesus as our Messiah. But we are now circumcised of the heart- we are spiritually different, separated and now belong and are identified with Christ. 

I believe both are intertwined and speak the same message... Charlie 

 

Galatians 5:3-4
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

Galatians 5:3-4
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Peter, not sure what this might mean regarding our short discussion of if all the books and chapters and verses are meaningful to us today..... you might have to help me with this.

Regarding the above verse in Galatians, I interpret this to me that the "physical" requirement of circumcision is directly tied to the law where .... the law could never save anyone but it certainly had to be obeyed = and still does. 

We are now indebted to Christ for His sacrifice for us  -for our sins. Type and shadow but everything in the Scriptures has meaning ....The sacrificial lambs had a special meaning and purpose before the cross but after the cross we now see how it was symbolic of the more perfect Sacrifice of the Messiah. Everything in the OT teaches and leads us to the cross..... HIS Plan of Salvation for man.   Charlie

[Peterlag]

16 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Peter, not sure what this might mean regarding our short discussion of if all the books and chapters and verses are meaningful to us today..... you might have to help me with this.

Regarding the above verse in Galatians, I interpret this to me that the "physical" requirement of circumcision is directly tied to the law where .... the law could never save anyone but it certainly had to be obeyed = and still does. 

We are now indebted to Christ for His sacrifice for us  -for our sins. Type and shadow but everything in the Scriptures has meaning ....The sacrificial lambs had a special meaning and purpose before the cross but after the cross we now see how it was symbolic of the more perfect Sacrifice of the Messiah. Everything in the OT teaches and leads us to the cross..... HIS Plan of Salvation for man.   Charlie

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ.

 

The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

 

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real.

 

So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once a person is in Christ.