Are Fossils evidence of evolution ....or are the evidence of fossils

[HAZARD]

I believe God, some time in the dateless past created the heavens and the earth and then the angels including Lucifer to inhabit them.

God gave Lucifer rule of the earth, and some time during his reign Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled.

God in His anger destroyed the earth, turned it upside down.

Who knows how long God left the Earth without form, and void, and darkness upon the face of the deep.

About 6,000 years ago, God restored the earth to make it habitable for man, Adam and Eve. God told them to be fruit full and multiply, and RE-PLENISH THE EARTH. In must have been plenished before, for God to say RE-PLENISH the earth.

Edited April 12, 2021 by HAZARD
Correct spelling

[one.opinion]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I could not help but notice you PURPOSELY failed to address the Volkswagen Beetle......

You are right, I intentionally did not address the Volkswagen Beetle, even though I used to drive one many years ago when I was in high school! 

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Anyway, I would respectfully request that you go to the Book of Luke in chapter 3:23-28.  Here God has, for more than one reason, given us HIS genealogy from HIMSELF all the way back to Adam.  And there are places in the OT where you / we can find the actual ages of each of the folks .....

Yes, passages like this outside of Genesis indicate to me that Adam and Eve were real people that existed somewhere in that 6,000-10,000 year window. However, Genesis 4 gives us very good indications that there were other people on the planet at the time. It makes more sense to me that Adam and Eve were the first people to receive the "image of God". It seems rather unlikely this is a physical effect, since God is spirit, so the "image of God" would also likely exist on a spiritual level, rather than physical. Eve could certainly be "mother of all living" in a spiritual sense.

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And the Scriptures also tell us the answer to this question ---- all we have to do is to take the 6,000 years of man and add 5 more days! As you know, man was created on the 6th day. 

It is not necessary to assume that the Genesis 1 account must refer to days as 24 hour periods. On the contrary, the evidence that God has left argues against these days being literal 24 hour periods.

 

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

That is exactly (my opinion) what HE did not only for this planet, but for the entire universe.... He did not place a new star some 10 gazillion miles away and wait for its light to take the time to arrive at earth.... no, the universe, this planet had  ALL their characteristics, time, space, distance, whatever just as HE created Adam two seconds ago yet he looked / functioned / etc., as a 26 year old man. 

This is a possibility. To me however, it is more reasonable to assume that the universe and planet look billions of years old, that the fossils were laid down in a very large number of events over vast numbers of years, and that organisms and genomes would show evidence of evolution, not just to give the appearance of age - but as testament to the actual age of God's creation.

[teddyv]

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

That's just creation telling, not retelling.  In fact, that's just quoting scripture. 

 

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

I am not sure what you are saying here.  Would you mind expanding on this a bit? 

The problems of thermodynamics (latent heat of condensation) is solved if the majority of water came from underground, and not just from rain, and if the mountains were not like ours today.  With underground water showing up, you don't have to worry about vapor converting to rain, from thin air, causing heat.

It appears that there are still vast oceans beneath us, as scientists now theorize.  The short story is that seismometers measured seismic waves slowing.  They think it's water.

One article from 2017 writes:  A new study suggests that a hidden “ocean” is nestled in the Earth’s mantle some 400 miles beneath North America. The hidden reservoir, apparently locked in a blue crystalline mineral called ringwoodite, may hold three times as much water that exists in all the world’s surface oceans.

Genesis itself describes that ALL underground water erupted from the Earth.  If scientists are right about all that water, and the Bible is right about it all showing up on land, that's going to make quite a flood.

Genesis 7:11-12 (NLT) 11 When Noah was 600 years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the underground waters erupted from the earth, and the rain fell in mighty torrents from the sky. 12 The rain continued to fall for forty days and forty nights.

I'm not sure what you subscribe to so this may not be specifically relevant to your views on the matter. The following is a bit of a paraphrase of what I've gleaned about a couple of the leading creationist ideas...

Creationist organizations that espouse catastrophic plate theory (CPT) or Hydroplate theory, hypothesize that the Flood initiated fracturing (or perhaps occurred along existing boundaries) of the crustal plates. So, if we take the well-known case of the Mid Atlantic Ridge spreading centre, at the time of the Flood some 4700 years ago, the earth was in the Pangaea state. The Flood initiated the separation of the continents. They initially would have moved at high rates of separation and have been slowing down ever since.

One needs to consider a mechanism and the energy to start accelerating an incredible mass as that of the continental plates. You also need to upwell the mantle to create new crustal material at the ridge. 

The energy alone to move the crust in this manner is incredibly high and would create a stupendous amount of heat. This is a known issue for those who subscribe to this idea. I believe the amount of heat would just simply melt the entire crust. 

That's going to be a tough ride for Noah.

As to the water issue, I'm sure this was discussed in another thread, but I don't think you were involved. As you quoted, the water is locked up in the crystals of a mineral. While there is potentially more water locked up in the mantle than in the oceans right now, we need a plausible mechanism for unlocking the water from the mineral. I don't have enough knowledge of the mineral in question (ringwoodite), but it's not a simple matter of simply releasing the water molecules from a crystal lattice to account for the massive amounts of water of the Flood.

 

[Sparks]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

So, if we take the well-known case of the Mid Atlantic Ridge spreading centre, at the time of the Flood some 4700 years ago, the earth was in the Pangaea state. The Flood initiated the separation of the continents. They initially would have moved at high rates of separation and have been slowing down ever since.

Thanks for the reply.

I have heard of the Pangea theory, but it's one of those 'billions of years' theories where the continents slowly tractor along pushing things apart.  I have never heard it applied to the Creation story, in which it rapidly happened.  I suppose some might believe it or have suggested it, but I have never heard it before and I think if a rapid version were true, it would be a rough ride like you said.

But I don't believe either version happened; rapid or slow.  

On maps when they fit pieces together to try to show how our current day continents supposedly fit into a supercontinent, they have to shrink down Africa about 40%, remove most of Central America to give the appearance that it is possible.  Pangea is a theory, but I don't think it's what actually happened.

If the entire Earth surface was submerged as the Bible suggests, I don't think we would recognize what the place used to look like when God pulled the plug, and the water drained off and He began pushing things around such as mountain ranges.

But if you had water rushing all around, storms, the moon's gravity, waves raging and so on; hydrologic sorting would definitely happen, and there would be fossils everywhere in strata, like we see today.

 

[The Barbarian]

19 hours ago, Sparks said:

To the atheist crowd, they think God was stuttering or something, but in reality He made the trees and animals for the world, and then made the Garden of Eden, and a new set of animals specifically for Adam to name.  There is no contradiction, and the atheists entirely missed this detail.   But I am sure the atheists are still ranting about God making the animals and trees, twice, and claiming there was no good reason.

It seems to me if one must add new ideas to scripture to make it fit one's assumptions, then the assumptions are probably wrong.

 

[The Barbarian]

15 hours ago, teddyv said:

The thermodynamic issues are accelerating crustal plates to very high velocities with the necessary crustal formation at the spreading ridges.

In fact, to make those motions as fast as required for YE assumptions, the heat would be sufficient to boil the seas.

 

[Guest kingdombrat]

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Anyway, I would respectfully request that you go to the Book of Luke in chapter 3:23-28.  Here God has, for more than one reason, given us HIS genealogy from HIMSELF all the way back to Adam.  And there are places in the OT where you / we can find the actual ages of each of the folks .....

Essentially, God is telling us there are some 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus and of course it has been another 2,000 years since then.... So, at this time, there is no doubt that man has been on this planet for no more than 6,000 years. For me, this tells me we are so near the HIS second coming..... (if you order pizza, get the 30 minute or less delivery guarantee).....

Now, it you agree there is no errors in the Scriptures (my first question), then you should also agree man is 6,000 years old. So, the next question is," well, how old is the earth?

And the Scriptures also tell us the answer to this question ---- all we have to do is to take the 6,000 years of man and add 5 more days! As you know, man was created on the 6th day. 

Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie 

Sparks added something I never really looked at from that angle and point of view before.   But in a few posts back, he alluded to there being animals and the Earth [assumed created since life exists] {and THEN} the Garden of Eden where an entirely different line of animals are introduced and this time Adam names them.

 

That IMMEDIATELY tells me from that simplistic explanation of his post, Earth existed with at least Plant life, Animal life, and BOOM a whole new [Environment is made within the confides of Earth called EDEN].

How long is the Earth and first set of animals/plant life in existence before God creates Eden/Adam/new set of Animals for Adam to name?

Do these two Anomalies prove a possible time expansion when the first couple days don't really set limits to a 24 hour period, and the first few days with the Sun/Moon don't relate immediately to the time frame once Adam is created?

[Sparks]

16 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I believe God, some time in the dateless past created the heavens and the earth and then the angels including Lucifer to inhabit them.

God gave Lucifer rule of the earth, and some time during his reign Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled.

God in His anger destroyed the earth, turned it upside down.

Who knows how long God left the Earth without form, and void, and darkness upon the face of the deep.

About 6,000 years ago, God restored the earth to make it habitable for man, Adam and Eve. God told them to be fruit full and multiply, and RE-PLENISH THE EARTH. In must have been plenished before, for God to say RE-PLENISH the earth.

Replenish, in a 1611 dictionary simply meant to fill.  Today, replenish has come to mean refill.  The word meaning has changed, as words tend to do over 400 years.  This single word has caused some modern false doctrine, called the Gap Theory. 

If you go back to the original Hebrew in Genesis 1:28, the Hebrew verb מלאו (mil’û), simply means fill.  If you were living in 1611, you would immediately associate replenish with filling, as if filling for the first time.

Strong's Concordance

 

male or mala: to be full, to fill

Original Word: מָלֵא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: male or mala
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-lay')
Definition: to be full, to fill

That's is just about the only problem you run into when using the King James Edition of the Bible, is that you have to keep in mind that some word meaning has changed, and even sometimes words mean the opposite from today.  You are dealing in Shakespearean English.  Modern translations look back at the original Hebrew, and translate it to mean fill, using today's word meaning including the Modern King James, as seen below.

Genesis 1:28 (NKJV) Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Genesis 1:28 (NLT) Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

If you use the word fill instead of thinking refill in Genesis 1:28, you will come away with the true story of Genesis. 

God didn't make the Earth, then destroy it, and then remake it, and then flood it.  He made the Earth in 6 literal days, and then later flooded it.

[teddyv]

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

Thanks for the reply.

I have heard of the Pangea theory, but it's one of those 'billions of years' theories where the continents slowly tractor along pushing things apart.  I have never heard it applied to the Creation story, in which it rapidly happened.  I suppose some might believe it or have suggested it, but I have never heard it before and I think if a rapid version were true, it would be a rough ride like you said.

Well Plate Tectonics is well observed, is very predictive, and has very strong explanatory power for why the earth has the surface forms it does. The last I heard, Answer's in Genesis and ICR, if not others, have at least provisionally accepted hydroplate or CPT as the crustal mechanics of the Flood.

The concept of Pangaea is quite well supported by geophysical, geological and paleontological evidence and fits very nicely within Plate Tectonic theory and measured plate movement rates.

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

But I don't believe either version happened; rapid or slow.  

That's why I qualified my initial response to you because not everyone in the young earth camp will agree either. 

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

On maps when they fit pieces together to try to show how our current day continents supposedly fit into a supercontinent, they have to shrink down Africa about 40%, remove most of Central America to give the appearance that it is possible.  Pangea is a theory, but I don't think it's what actually happened.

 

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

If the entire Earth surface was submerged as the Bible suggests, I don't think we would recognize what the place used to look like when God pulled the plug, and the water drained off and He began pushing things around such as mountain ranges.

The way you describe this speaks to me as a supernatural action of God. And that's fine with me, since it's not really a testable hypothesis and therefore outside of scientific purview.  

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

But if you had water rushing all around, storms, the moon's gravity, waves raging and so on; hydrologic sorting would definitely happen, and there would be fossils everywhere in strata, like we see today.

 

There are fossils all over, but they are not randomly distributed like what a single event you describe.

In a high energy environment as you describe here, there would be less hydrologic sorting. It does not take much water energy to move large boulders (go near a rushing creek in the spring and listen). The muds and silts would remain suspended for a very long time, unlikely to settle out after even a year of quiescence after the Flood itself.

[Sparks]

51 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

How long is the Earth and first set of animals/plant life in existence before God creates Eden/Adam/new set of Animals for Adam to name?

It all happened within 6 literal days, and then 1 day of rest.