Women forced to keep silence in Church

[Waggles]

23 minutes ago, Paul James said:

it is interesting that in answer to my concerns about the female ministry in my Union church, the Holy Spirit led me to the M.A. thesis which gave me valuable insight into why 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is certainly no a blanket prohibition on female ministry in the churches.

Women leadership in the churches today 

Gerd Eva Brunne is a bishop in the Lutheran Church of Sweden. She served as the Bishop of Stockholm from 2009 till 2019. She is the first openly lesbian bishop of a mainstream church in the world and the first bishop of the Church of Sweden to be in a registered same-sex partnership.

She is the first openly lesbian bishop in the world and the first bishop of the Church of Sweden to have lived in a registered homosexual partnership. Brunne  said: "It is very positive that our church is setting an example here and is choosing me as bishop based on my qualifications, when they also know that they can meet resistance elsewhere." 

On the official website of the Church of Sweden, Bishop Brunne wrote: "I know what it is to be called into question. I am in the lucky situation that I have power, and I can use it for the benefit of those who have no power."

In September 2015 Bishop Brunne proposed the removal of symbols of Christianity, including crosses, from the Seamen's Church in Stockholm Harbor, to open the church to worshipping sailors of all beliefs, and to mark the direction of Mecca as a service to Muslim visitors.

Yeah, she too and her lover (a deacon) are right into textual criticism and theological scholarship. 

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

The "Second" century? You sure about that? 

The Eastern Orthodox Church was a region of the church in the second century? 

Constantinople was the centre of two regions in the second century church?

 

Source?

I could be wrong about that because I remember that Constantine set up his headquarters in Constantinople in the 4th Century and ruled the Eastern part of the church from there, while he appointed a caretaker leader to administer the Western Latin churches.

However, my point was that blanket prohibition of female verbal ministry was not accepted by every church, until decreed by the Bishop of Rome when Rome took over the supreme authority in the church.

[Paul James]

17 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Women leadership in the churches today 

Gerd Eva Brunne is a bishop in the Lutheran Church of Sweden. She served as the Bishop of Stockholm from 2009 till 2019. She is the first openly lesbian bishop of a mainstream church in the world and the first bishop of the Church of Sweden to be in a registered same-sex partnership.

She is the first openly lesbian bishop in the world and the first bishop of the Church of Sweden to have lived in a registered homosexual partnership. Brunne  said: "It is very positive that our church is setting an example here and is choosing me as bishop based on my qualifications, when they also know that they can meet resistance elsewhere." 

On the official website of the Church of Sweden, Bishop Brunne wrote: "I know what it is to be called into question. I am in the lucky situation that I have power, and I can use it for the benefit of those who have no power."

In September 2015 Bishop Brunne proposed the removal of symbols of Christianity, including crosses, from the Seamen's Church in Stockholm Harbor, to open the church to worshipping sailors of all beliefs, and to mark the direction of Mecca as a service to Muslim visitors.

Yeah, she too and her lover (a deacon) are right into textual criticism and theological scholarship. 

The problem with her as a church leader is not that she is a female, but because she is a lesbian. It doesn't prove that female ministry and leadership is non-Biblical, but a lesbian church leader is.   If you are going to use the same argument, then you must use the example of a homosexual male bishop to state that male ministry should be outlawed in the churches.

Also, there are many godly academics who are strong on textual criticism and theological scholarship, so those don't disqualify a female or male from being a leader in the church.

Nice try but no cigar!  

Edited February 6, 2021 by Paul James

[Arrabon]

42 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Point's been made. It'll be received or it won't. Ephesians 4:29. Helps me. It'll help you. It'll help him. Then get back to the op as soon as possible. Right? Posts, not posters.

@Josheb my brother.

NO!!! Poster not post is everything, as to whether he is arrogant or egotistical, or sarcastic ( Not accusing anyone, meerly an example).

In my 78 years experience of living and 43 years as a follower of Christ, the topic in a conversation isn't always as important as the way it's delivered whether carnal or Christian. 

Advertising to me is a prime example. If the product isn't packaged and marketed properly your effort is meaningless.

 Is, let's just throw it against the wall and see if it sticks, the way we share a life and death topic?

Delivery of a topic is everything.

God says so. 

John 13:35, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER.
It's rare that love is the center of any commentary or any opinion on any Christian(?) forum, and "FEW" accept and participate in that premise of (LOVE?) as a prerequisite for any post.

 

If knowledge not love is the prerequisite for our sharing, then we deny Gods calling to love, and call God a Liar.

 

[Willa]

5 hours ago, Waggles said:

Thank God that Smith Wigglesworth and John Lake did not have their Masters Degrees in Divinity or they would never have accomplished the great Pentecostal revivals of their times. 

I knew the daughter of John G. Lake, Gertrude Reidt.  She died because she had a bowel blockage and had refused to use medication or see a doctor before it got to that state.  She waited for God to heal her.   Her dad  claimed he was only taught by God, but his teaching was not sound and full of a lot of lies about who he knew, where he had been and what he had done.  

Gertrude's husband Will Reidt was my Sunday school teacher and his doctrine was to teach John G. Lake.  Sorry, but while he could be an excellent teacher, Will's teaching was full of half truths and Lake's exaggerated claims.  He ordained dozens of men of that church as ministers of his own church, Lake's apostolic church, thus creating a church within a church and splitting it.  Some of those ordained into his church admitted doing it for tax breaks.  I have little regard for Lake and for the fruit his ministry produced. 

However, I agree that a person doesn't need a degree to be an excellent pastor or teacher.  They do need to compare their teaching with that of others to be sure it is what others understand from Scripture and teach.  This is what Paul did.  

[DeighAnn]

Bit too much for me (who knew??) so just wanted to be sure

It was put forth that Paul, and not God made those statements.  Just like Job has a bunch of guy giving their own words and thoughts that are not of God, yet written in His Word just the same.  

 

[Arrabon]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Has your 78 years of experience and 43 years of following Christ ever shown attempts to correct the personal flaws of complete strangers (people you've never met and know very little about)

 

@Josheb

 I 'm not laughing at you, but the thought of attempting to correct anyone else's personal flaws when I have a hard time even recognizing my own flaws, let alone correcting them, makes me laugh rather hard.

I have too many flaws or worse such as my own sins to focus on, as well as just deal with daily life, to try to do  what you suggest.

God says take the Log out of your own eye before attempting to take a twig out of another's eye.

Correcting someone else seems hilarious the way I live a quiet life.

Your question seems more like a test of character than a genuine inquiry.

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Just edit the post to say something like "the early church" instead of "second century". (I'll delete my posts if and when I read the change )

Done.   I forgot about Alexandria as one of the regions.   I might be wrong but I have an impression in my mind that the 4th Century manuscript was Alexandrian.  You might be able to put me right there.

[Paul James]

23 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Bit too much for me (who knew??) so just wanted to be sure

It was put forth that Paul, and not God made those statements.  Just like Job has a bunch of guy giving their own words and thoughts that are not of God, yet written in His Word just the same.  

 

i think the guiding principle is that most of the Old Testament is written for us rather than directly to us.

[Paul James]

56 minutes ago, Willa said:

I knew the daughter of John G. Lake, Gertrude Reidt.  She died because she had a bowel blockage and had refused to use medication or see a doctor before it got to that state.  She waited for God to heal her.   Her dad  claimed he was only taught by God, but his teaching was not sound and full of a lot of lies about who he knew, where he had been and what he had done.  

Gertrude's husband Will Reidt was my Sunday school teacher and his doctrine was to teach John G. Lake.  Sorry, but while he could be an excellent teacher, Will's teaching was full of half truths and Lake's exaggerated claims.  He ordained dozens of men of that church as ministers of his own church, Lake's apostolic church, thus creating a church within a church and splitting it.  Some of those ordained into his church admitted doing it for tax breaks.  I have little regard for Lake and for the fruit his ministry produced. 

However, I agree that a person doesn't need a degree to be an excellent pastor or teacher.  They do need to compare their teaching with that of others to be sure it is what others understand from Scripture and teach.  This is what Paul did.  

I read that John Lake became disillusioned with the doctors of his time after studying toward a medical degree.   I think that disillusionment coloured his teaching about seeking medical assistance.   Curry Blake, who has reactivated John Lake's Divine Healing Technician's Manual and has a CD and DVD teaching set on it, states that a sick person should seek medical help and the Lord's help at the same time.   He says that seeking medical help is not a sign of a lack of faith, and the medication the person is taking will not hinder divine healing, and when the Lord heals the person, it will become obvious that the medication will be unnecessary and might cause further problems.  Blake advises in these cases to go back to the doctor, get confirmation that the medical condition has been healed, and for the doctor to instruct the patient to cease taking the medication.  Blake strictly advises that a person should not stop taking medication unless the person who prescribed it says so.  I think that Curry Blake promotes Lake's principles in a much more practical way.

I don't agree with the early Pentecostal anti-academic notion.  Oral Roberts founded a university and many of the graduates have done great things for the Lord.   It is not the principle of gaining an academic degree that is the issue, it is the type of teaching that is involved.  I hold a M.Div, and it was a wonderful three year journey that deepened my knowledge and appreciation of Scripture and church history.

The problem with the anti-academic attitude of some Pentecostals is exemplified in the invasion of the occult in many Pentecostal churches, plus false prosperity and guaranteed healing doctrines and kundalini manifestations that have nothing to do with New Testament worship.   The whole reason why the early church decided to train clergy is to counter the rash of heresies that were invading the church during and after the First Century.

One of the five fold ministries of the church is that of teacher.  These are men and women called of God to teach sound doctrine to faithful believers who will in turn pass it on to others in order to ensure that their faith is soundly based on Christ.  Where there is a lack of sound teaching and every believer is a law to themselves in terms of doctrine, we have false doctrines and divisions.

The piece of paper in the frame on the wall does not make an effective ministry for Christ.  But if it represents three or more years of solid learning in sound doctrine, then it sure is a help and may provide a shield against heresy.  The "oneness" Pentecostal movement is a whole false movement that has come about because the founders of the movement lacked sound doctrine, decided that two plus two equals five, divided from the mainstream Pentecostal movement and went their own way.