No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Justin Adams]

On 3/2/2021 at 1:44 PM, Charlie744 said:

RM, I am very sorry we do not seem to interpret Daniel the same, and I will confess, and have mentioned this a number of times, that YOUR interpretations are certainly more in line or for that matter, fit in quite well with "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel. I KNOW mine are not since they are just mine and I am still in-process of completing 11.

Now, we did attempt to walk through Daniel 2 and then onto 7 & 8 but it just did not materialize. And of course, chapter 9 would have been also quite interesting to discuss.....

Now, in regards to both the 70 years and the 70 week prophecy, here is a summation of my interpretations:

1) The 70 years the Jews were kept in Babylon was a "punishment" for disobeying God's Sabbath. And you are certainly correct in that it had to meet the requirements of Leviticus.

2) But the 70 weeks prophecy or 490 years beginning with the decree by Cyrus to allow them to return to Israel, this was NOT a 490 year PUNISHMENT. It was a period for their "restoration". I hope I remember this correctly, but in Leviticus, there is a multi-level requirement for restoration - the people, the land and the Temple / Sanctuary. Each must be "restored".

This is the reason why God had "carved up" the 490 years into 3 separate periods. In EACH 0f the 3 carve outs, God identified exactly what would be restored... He walks us through it: here is what will be restored in the seven weeks, here is what will be restored during the next 62 weeks, leaving the last week or 7 years remaining. Now just about EVERYONE contends this last 7 year period has been thrown into the far future and is still yet to happen....NO, I mean absolutely NO.

Trace the separate requirements in Leviticus for restoration to these same "carve out" periods in Daniel (70 weeks)..... God would certainly obey His OWN REQUIREMENTS FOUND IN LEVITICUS TO RESTORE HIS LAND, HIS PEOPLE AND THE TEMPLE / SANCTUARY. \

So, after the completion of the 69 weeks or 483 years, there is ONLY ONE REQUIREMENT REMAINING - the restoration of the Temple / Sanctuary. In chapter 9, there are the 6 requirements identified to accomplish this last "restoration carve out" and it has to be fulfilled in the last week of Daniel's prophecy. Again, MOST have thrown this week into the future but that is entirely due to a Jesuit priest named Riberi in 1520. He was commissioned to construct or find an interpretation within Daniel that would remove the "accepted understanding" that the papacy was indeed the "little horn" of Daniel. This was also the same time of the Reformation and so many were attacking the RCC (Luther, so many more). This priest came up with these interpretations that would ensure this "little horn" (the "HE" in 9:27 was really a "he" and the AC figure). And, since this AC figure had yet to arise, it would have to come even later  on than the 1500's and thus COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE THE PAPACY! And they promoted this and its related / necessary interpretations throughout the RCC and it stuck ---- very well until this day. In fact, just about everyone believes this to now be "gospel" if you will.

However, the 6 requirements WOULD INDEED be fulfilled by the ONLY ONE who was able - THE MESSIAH. And this is really what Daniel is about..... the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation. Many may contend and argue He did not YET complete or fulfill all 6 but that would be a grave mistake. This last week is THE most important week in Daniel's prophecy - revealing the coming of the Messiah and His MISSION OR those 6 requirements to complete. If we are to look into those requirements from HIS view and not from a 6 ft (man's) level, we can easily see they relate to HIS PLAN OF SALVATION FOR MAN for the coming 2,000 years WHERE we have been given the greatest gift / option - if we accept Him as our Messiah we will be saved. This "restoration" process  - the last 6 requirements to be fulfilled by the Messiah HAD TO BE COMPLETED  - His Plan of Restoration according to Leviticus would / could never have been fulfilled. 

The Messiah would serve as OUR HIGH PRIEST, THE PERFECT SACRIFICIAL LAMB, AND THE CLEANSED TEMPLE / SANCTUARY in order to complete the restoration process. 

Stand back and look at the entire 49o year prophecy - it reflects and is meant to do one thing - after the Jews disobeyed God for the millionth time, they were made captive by the Babylonians.... and all of this was predicted in Jeremiah - along with a "New Covenant" God would establish. This last week is the completion of God's Plan to restore His People, His Land and His Temple/Sanctuary ONCE AGAIN AND THIS WOULD ALSO BE THE FINAL RESTORATION OR allowance that would be given to the Jews. This was to be one more attempt for them to obey God and forgo any type of idolatry - ever again. 

Also remember, that Jeremiah would take and hid the ARK from the Babylonians prior to their taking the Jews captive.... even IF all the land, people and buildings / Temple was properly restored, it would still not have God's Presence within the Holy of Holies.... it would still be a beautiful Temple where the Jews would worship but without His Holy Presence. Consequently, the Messiah would also restore His Holy Presence in the Sanctuary. The restoration of it all would now be complete - IN  PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER CEREMONY. This is when the Messiah would also be the Passover Lamb..... but He was rejected by His own people.

Despite that He was "cut off" in the "midst of the week" (almost in Daniel 9), He would tell us a few things while still on the Cross that confirms (for me) that He certainly indeed fulfilled and completed all 6 requirements in 9:27,when He said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do", and "it is finished". Despite the crucifixion and they (Jews) prevented HiM from living the FULL 7 years of Daniel's last week, He would "finish" all 6 of 9:27.

Now, one can accept the RCC's interpretation of Daniel and believe God had instructed Daniel to write about some AC boogeyman figure or realize that Daniel has one purpose in mind -- to reveal the final "restoration" of the Jews in anticipation for the coming Messiah and all the events that have indeed taken place as a result of His crucifixion (and this is seen in chapter 11 - once again, God is giving us His prophecies that speak about HIM and not a Ptolemy or an AC, Berenice, Cleopatra or AE)...... The Scriptures and especially Daniel reveal the coming Messiah.... or stay with the interpretations of the "little horn" which just happen to also be prophesied quite adequately in chapter 11 - speaks against God, think to change times and laws.... on and on.  

Just my thoughts and I apologize for vomiting out all of this..... I am right in the middle of 11 and I breath this stuff every day and have been for over 7 months......

Thanks for your attention and patience, Charlie
 

 

So now, as we all sit watching the PPP fires burn. (pointless prophesy publications)

Singing 'Kumbaya' and awaiting the great sky elevator to whisk us up and away while our neighbors fry in God's Wrath. 

Seriously though, where do we stand now and what do we expect? Your thoughts.

[iamlamad]

On 2/3/2021 at 11:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

1 Thes 4:14 God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him - Paul wrote this long after Jesus ascension as evidence there are no souls yet taken to heaven after Lord Jesus ascension.

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....THIS WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

 John 14:3 ....I will come again n receive you unto Myself.

We shall be literally rcvd when Jesus come again to take us home.                 

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance." Sometimes a scripture will refer to the body, but other times to the "inward man." Daniel's inward man went to Abraham's bosom where ALL the saints of the Old Testament went. But when Jesus arose, He went with the elders of the OT saints to heaven.  Countless times NT believers have gone to heaven and talked with OT saints, then returned to testify. Paul went, but was not allowed to tell what he saw.

It will be "and the end of the days" that the OT saints along with Daniel will be resurrected. I am convinced it will be at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week.  I think their resurrection will be "on the last day" or the last 24 hours of the 70th week. That is right where that great earthquake hits. I believe that earthquake will be CAUSED by God raising those who have been long dead.

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16   Sorry, but this is big time error.  Paul was talking about ONLY NT saints. Daniel was not "in Christ." No OT saints were "in Christ." No one could die "in Christ" until Jesus death and resurrection. 

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven) Wow! You got this part right. Jesus had not risen yet so Abraham's bosom had not yet been emptied. That had to wait for Jesus' resurrection.

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....  Sorry, but you are TOTALLY misunderstanding this passage.

It was an ANGEL looking for someone worthy to take the book and open the scrolls. And this search was done in heaven, on earth and under the earth or in sheol.) Jesus had not yet risen from the dead at this time (In the vision - not in real time) so "no man was found." This passage is only to show us timing: Jesus not yet raised. After some time of John weeping, Jesus rose from the dead and then WAS FOUND worthy. One could guess, and would be right, that the angel searching under the earth could tell us that Abraham's bosom had not YET been emptied. 

The truth is, Abraham's bosom WAS emptied as soon as Jesus rose from the dead. How long did John weep? It was not too long. Shortly after Jesus was NOT found, then He WAS found. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by iamlamad

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

I outright agree. Everybody is in the World of the Dead. Those who believe in Christ are in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22).

[R. Hartono]

On 3/10/2021 at 2:13 AM, iamlamad said:

Sometimes a scripture will refer to the body, but other times to the "inward man." Daniel's inward man went to Abraham's bosom where ALL the saints of the Old Testament went. But when Jesus arise, He was taken with all the OT saints to heaven. 

Not true. Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was arised.

Jesus told Mary not to touch her because He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:19 AM, Leonardo Von said:

I outright agree. Everybody is in the World of the Dead. Those who believe in Christ are in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22).

Shalom, Leonardo Von.

No, they're just dead, asleep in the Messiah. Why do we have to have continuity of life? Can't we just understand that the Scriptures make a wonderful argument for the RESURRECTION OF LIFE? Avraham's Cove ("Bosom") is AFTER the Resurrection! Specifically, the words of Yeshua` regarding the rich man occur at the Great White Throne Judgment.

God is the CREATOR! No matter how a person has decayed in the grave, YHWH God can create that person again! He REMEMBERS those who are His own, and He will give them life eternal!

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24Saying,

"Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But AS TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 

32 "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!" 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

So, when Yeshua` said, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living," He was referring to the RESURRECTION, not "being in Heaven" after death!

We are NEVER promised "going to Heaven" when we die!

We don't "go to Heaven" when we die; we await the Resurrection in the grave, asleep in the Messiah, waiting to hear the Trumpet of God! The "gates of pearl and the streets of gold" are descriptions of the NEW JERUSALEM! We don't go to it; it comes here to earth for us! And, it doesn't come until MUCH later!

[biblelesson]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Leonardo Von.

No, they're just dead, asleep in the Messiah. Why do we have to have continuity of life? Can't we just understand that the Scriptures make a wonderful argument for the RESURRECTION OF LIFE? Avraham's Cove ("Bosom") is AFTER the Resurrection! Specifically, the words of Yeshua` regarding the rich man occur at the Great White Throne Judgment.

God is the CREATOR! No matter how a person has decayed in the grave, YHWH God can create that person again! He REMEMBERS those who are His own, and He will give them life eternal!

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24Saying,

"Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But AS TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 

32 "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!" 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

So, when Yeshua` said, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living," He was referring to the RESURRECTION, not "being in Heaven" after death!

We are NEVER promised "going to Heaven" when we die!

We don't "go to Heaven" when we die; we await the Resurrection in the grave, asleep in the Messiah, waiting to hear the Trumpet of God! The "gates of pearl and the streets of gold" are descriptions of the NEW JERUSALEM! We don't go to it; it comes here to earth for us! And, it doesn't come until MUCH later!

 I would like to show you, through the bible, resurrection, Abraham's bosom, and where the saint's souls go when they die.

 

Abraham's bosom:  Lazarus and the Rich man both died and both were buried.  However, before Christ, the two were under the Old Covenant, the law, and when they died, Lazarus the bagger was taken by the angel to a place of safety, Abraham's bosom, Luke 16:19-24, but the Rich man was tormented in fire (hell).  Lazarus's soul was in Abraham's bosom, and the Rich man's soul was in hell.  It was prophesied that at Jesus's crucifixion, He said, thou would not leave my soul in hell, Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:27.  This explains when Jesus died, He descended into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9; He went and preached to spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:19.  Jesus preached the gospel to those who were dead to be judged in the flesh, but to live to God in the spirit, 1 Peter 4:6.  

 

When Jesus ascended he lead captivity captive, Ephesians 4:8,.  So those in Abraham's bosom were taken out of that place, and taken to heaven with him.   After Jesus's resurrection, graves were opened, and the saints that slept rose and appeared to men, Matthew 27:52-53.  We know they must have gone with Jesus when Jesus ascended, Ephesians 4:8, because those who came out of their graves were called "saints."  I don't know if some people think that these people which had been dead, buried and rose, would live again in the flesh.  But consider that after Jesus rose, He also appeared to His disciples for many days, where He had a different type of body where he could walk through closed doors, John 20:26, but His body could be touch by man, specifically, Thomas, John 20:27.  So it stand to reason that the graves that opened had bodies like Jesus's body, and when Jesus ascended, they ascended with Him to heaven.

Abraham's bosom was for those under the "Old Covenant," and they have been released from that place of safety, and their souls are with Christ.  They have been given their heavenly bodies.  Those who die after Christ has already ascended and is sitting on the right hand of God the Father, their souls will go to be with Christ, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8. Even consider Revelation 6:9-11.  When Jesus comes down, those souls in heaven, their graves will open, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and those alive will be changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  The way it happened when Jesus was raised from the dead where those in Abraham's bosom's graves opened, and their souls were taken with Jesus to Heaven, a similar thing will take place. The souls that are under the "New Covenant," in Christ, when they die, their souls go to be with Christ in heaven. 

At Christ's return, in the first resurrection, their graves will open and they will come out of their graves; again although their souls are with Christ.   This is the joining of all the saints in Christ, the Old and the New Covenant, to be with Christ forever, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 7:9,   Jesus is the Lord over all!  

 

Those in hell, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:14, where they will never die.  

I know some will not see this the way I see it.  But, I have tried to list as may scriptures for your review.    

[R. Hartono]

14 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

At Christ's return, in the first resurrection, their graves will open and they will come out of their graves; again although their souls are with Christ. 

Are you saying God will return their souls in heaven to their graves on earth and then take them back to heaven again ?

Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was arised.

As Jesus told Mary not to touch her because He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

[biblelesson]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:19 AM, Leonardo Von said:

I outright agree. Everybody is in the World of the Dead. Those who believe in Christ are in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22).

We must understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  Jesus had to take care of the Old Covenant because He was bringing in the New Covenant.  As long as the testator is alive, a covenant cannot be in full force, Hebrews 9:16, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."  Hebrews 9:17, For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."   When Jesus died, the Old Testament/Old Covenant was done away with, nailed to the cross, Colossians 2:14.  If Jesus had not taken care of everything under Old Testament, the New Testament would be of no strength for our salvation.   So because those in Abraham's bosom were of the Old Testament, Jesus took care of those saints, descended to set the captive free, they ascended with Him to heaven, under the Old Covenant.  There is to be no mixture between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant for salvation.  One is done away with while the other is in full force. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by biblelesson

[biblelesson]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

Are you saying God will return their souls in heaven to their graves on earth and then take them back to heaven again ?

Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was arised.

As Jesus told Mary not to touch her because He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

It will be just like at Jesus's resurrection, when the graves opened and the saints came out of them. 

 

The saints in Christ, who die in Christ, and whose souls are in heaven with Christ, their graves will open, and they will come out of their graves, and meet Christ in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  But they will not go back to heaven because Jesus is descending to earth,  1 Thessalonians 4:16.  The saints will descend with Jesus after they are resurrected in the 1st resurrection.  

The reason why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him has to do with first fruits. God (the husbandman) must be first partaker of the first fruit, 2 Timothy 2:6.  Search the scriptures on the meaning of the first fruits being present to God.  Jesus is the first fruits, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. Therefore, Jesus had to be present to God first before Mary touch Him, John 20:17.  Afterwards, he retuned from heaven and spoke with his disciples, John 20:19.

Research the scriptures regarding first fruits.  Here is a script, Leviticus 23:20, "And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the first fruits for a wave offering before the Lord with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 

Christ is our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14, who is the first fruits of them who slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20.  Based on God's requirement for a High Priest, and based on the first fruits requirement, He had to appear before God before anyone touched Him.  

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by biblelesson

[R. Hartono]

On 3/5/2021 at 3:40 PM, Justin Adams said:

Singing 'Kumbaya' and awaiting the great sky elevator to whisk us up and away while our neighbors fry in God's Wrath.

Tell neighbours all are invited to the Elevator or its too late.