No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

vic66 · August 10, 2021

Just now, vic66 said:

dead saints wait for the first resurrection abraham bosom(sleeping in christ) Amen

paradish is not abraham bosom but heaven.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

KJV, HCSB, ISV, YLT, DARBY, NASB, ASV, NET, AM, LEB, WEB, BBE, WNT
Verse Concepts
2 Cor 12:4

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

KJV, HCSB, ISV, YLT, DARBY, NASB, ASV, NET, AM, LEB, WEB, BBE, WNT

Rev 2:7

3 minutes ago, vic66 said:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

KJV, HCSB, ISV, YLT, DARBY, NASB, ASV, NET, AM, LEB, WEB, BBE, WNT

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Paradise

Retrobyter · August 12, 2021

Shalom, @Da Puppers

How do you read a novel? Well, normally, a person opens the book (physically or through Kindle or the like) and sits back and reads, letting the author tell the story (exegesis).

One does NOT tell himself his OWN story, paging through the book for supporting phrases (eisegesis)!

When reading the OT prophecies, one should read them in a single sitting, if possible, and let the author of the book (who is speaking for the Author of the book) tell the story! One should consider WHEN the author lived, WHAT was happening to the author, WHY God used this author to tell the story, and WHO the story is about.

OCCASIONALLY, God will tell about the distant future in the author's prophecy, but largely the book will be written as a history of what was going on in that author's life! The future element the Author will add to the book is usually the NEAR future of the results of what was going on around the author at the time.

Jeremiah (Yirmeyahuw), for instance, called the "Weeping Prophet," was recounting the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 B.C. He tells the children of Israel that their captivity would be 70 years in foreign lands. He recounts what he witnessed going on around him during those devastating days! He tells the children of Israel that GOD was the One who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple through the invaders, and WHY He did so!

So, one should read the things he wrote in light of those events! While there is SOME mention of the distance future, MOST of what he wrote - what God HAD him write - was about that time period and the near future of when God would allow them to return to the Land!

Later prophecies, like those Daniel recounts from the words of the messengers sent to him, will reflect back on earlier prophets, like Jeremiah's prophecy. Daniel even MENTIONS that he was studying Jeremiah's prophecy, learning about the 70 years, when he began to pray to confess his people's sins and ask for God's prophecy through Jeremiah to be fulfilled!

In answer to his prayers, God sent a messenger who told Daniel also about the 70 SEVENS of years! Again, very little was about the distant future! Most of those 70 sevens were fulfilled in the years following the prophecy!

Furthermore, one must be VERY careful to compare apples with apples, not oranges! One must be SURE that the prophecy of one prophet is talking about the same thing as that of another prophet! When one mixes two prophecies that really don't go together, one introduces ERROR! And, while that may be alright (not really) for one's private matters, that's a BIG problem when one TEACHES it to others as though it were the truth!

Retrobyter · August 13, 2021

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

Messiah has already come being foretold in Isaiah, 7:14, "Messiah would be born of a virgin. Micah 5:2, Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Isaiah 7:14, Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 40:3, A messenger will prepare the way (John the Baptist). Psalm 69:8, Isaiah 53:3, Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Isaiah 53:5, Messiah will be wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities.." Psalm 78:2, Messiah would speak in parables. Jeremiah 31:15, Children will be massacred at Messiah's birth. There are many more prophecies foretelling the coming of Messiah, who has already come.

Shalom, biblelesson.

Sure, He came the first time as the Messiah Son of Yosef ("Joseph," the Joseph of Genesis), the suffering and dying Messiah, but He is also to come as the Messiah Son of David, the victorious and reigning Messiah. For many years, this confused the rabbis, some thinking there would have to be TWO Messiahs. That's what prompted John's question in Matthew 11:

Matthew 11: (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him,

"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

He demonstrated that, even rejected to become the Messiah Son of Yosef, He still did the miracles that were promised of the Messiah Son of David. He was ONE Messiah who would come TWO different times. The First Advent, He was the Lamb of God ("haKeves Elohiym"), who died to take away the sins of the world; the Second Advent, He will be the Lion of the tribe of Judah ("haShachal hasheeVet Yhudah"), who will rescue His people and bring them back to the Land as their Messiah, the One Anointed to be their King.

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

The Judgment seat is of Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Of course it is! Yeshua` ("Jesus") explained that in John 5:

John 5:19-23 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

But, don't think for one moment that this Judgment Seat will take place in "Heaven!" It will take place THROUGHOUT the Kingdom of the Messiah during the Millennium, ending with the Great White Throne Judgment! Just remember, too, that that is not the END of His Kingdom!

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

We are to call our savior Jesus because the angel Gabriel (who stand in the presence of God, Luke 1:19) was sent from God, and gave a message to Mary, Luke 1:31, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in they womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS!

LOL! Then you should really at least call Him after His GREEK name: Ieesous, spelled "Iota (with smooth breathing)-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma" and pronounced "Yay-SOOS!" After all, this is how "Jesus" was originally pronounced in the 1600s A.D!

However, His Hebrew name is "Yeeshuwa`," spelled "Yud-shin-vav-`ayin," with vowel pointing, "Yud-tseeree-shin-shuruq-vav-patach-`ayin," pronounced "Yay-SHOO-(g)ah."

See, Greek didn't have an "sh" sound; so, they just used the sigma instead, and neither Greek nor English has the "`ayin" sound, which is like a "swallowed g" sound, like in the onomatopoeia "gulp." That's why "`Aza" is written "Gaza." Furthermore, it was the Greek habit to end most names with a sigma (-s) or an omicron-sigma (-os), especially names borrowed from other cultures and languages. The Roman name "Marcus," for instance, was written as "Markos" in Greek and we shorten it to just "Mark."

I'll frequently write "Yeshua`" because it's shorter to write and people can still pronounce it correctly from that spelling. THAT was and IS His name!

However, look at the REST of what Gavri'el ("Gabriel," which means "Strong One of God") said:

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOR EVER; and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END!"

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called 'the Son of God!' 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible!"

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

There are those today who say Messiah has not come yet, denying the fact that He came and was born of a virgin. These people are waiting for His first coming. However, we are waiting for Jesus second coming who came as the Messiah the first time.

You're right, and therefore, it's OUR JOB to teach them that Yeshua` is the Messiah promised to Israel. As Paul said,

Romans 11:26-32 (KJV)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (God's CHOOSING), they are beloved for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (I.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (the Jews) also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The children of Israel, particularly those of Yeshua`s own household, the Jews (children of Judah or Yhudah), are still the "CHOSEN SEED of Israel's race!"

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

Being foretold in the old testament, Messiah has come, and was born of a virgin, and his name is called, JESUS, who is the Christ - Jesus Christ!

"Christ" which comes from the Greek word "Christos," is just the Greek word that translates "Mashiyach" that we shorten and Anglicize to "Messiah." They mean EXACTLY the SAME THING! So, "Yeshua` the Messiah" means exactly the same as "Jesus the Christ."

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

I think it's important to note that the old covenant ended at Jesus's death, where the vail was ripped, bringing the new covenant, Hebrews 9:16-17.

There's a difference between a "covenant" and a "testament." A "testament" is a "WILL" that goes into effect after a person has died. A "covenant" is an "AGREEMENT" or a "CONTRACT" between two parties. A testament is a covenant, because a will is a contract, but a covenant is not necessarily a testament, because not all contracts are wills.

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

Some may not understand but Apostle Paul points out the problem with the reading of the old testament, 2 Corinthians 3:12-14:

12, "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech;

13, "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14, "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament which vail is done away in Christ."

We have to be able to discern which part of the old testament leads us into the New Testament, and which part does not. At this time of Christ, there is no mixing of the new and the old testament. So we must pray for discernment in reading of the old testament.

This is tragic. You don't know what you're talking about because you don't understand the Tanakh, the "Old Testament!" Let's go back and LOOK at the history of Mosheh ("Moses") and the children of Israel after the exodus from Egypt:

Exodus 34:29-35 (KJV)

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not (didn't realize) that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. 30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold (look!), the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh (near) him. 31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. 32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai. 33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail (veil) on his face. 34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. 35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

This REALLY HAPPENED! It's not just a fable or a fairytale!

It's similar to this account:

Matthew 16:28; 17:1-13 (KJV)

28"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles (tents); one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM!"

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mark 9:1-13 (KJV)

1 And he said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller (bleach; whitener) on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles (tents); one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

6 For he wist not (he didn't know) what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,

"THIS is my beloved Son: hear HIM!"

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying,

"Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

12 And he answered and told them,

"Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."

Luke 9:27-36 (KJV)

27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles (tents); one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias":

not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,

"THIS is my beloved Son: hear HIM!"

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

This also REALLY HAPPENED! And we have here at least three eye-witness accounts! Mattityahuw ("Matthew") the Leviy (Levite) recorded the words of Ya`aqoV ("James"); Yochanan Marcus ("John Mark") recorded the words of Shim`own Kefa ("Simon Peter"); and Lukas the doctor recorded the words of many people, which probably included all three, but at least the account according to Yochanan ("John"), because he wrote...

Luke 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus (lover of God), 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

And, John wrote a LOT about "loving God!" (John 3:16; 1 John 4:7-8)

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

If we are not sure, we look for what's been moved from the old to the new under the gospel writings. That's safer because in Christ we are saved by the gospel only:

Romans 16:25, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ.."

Romans 2:16, "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

2 Timothy 2:6, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved..."

2 Thessalonians 2:14, "Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Because the gospel is the power of salvation unto everyone that believeth, Romans 1:16.

So when we are told we must believe on Jesus, we are being told to believe on Jesus Christ's and His Gospel.

The gospel of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:1, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand..."

Despite some goofs saying otherwise, Paul preached (heralded) Christ's gospel - the Messiah's good news. The "gospel of Christ" is not the gospel ABOUT the Christ; it's the Christ's gospel! And, what did He herald?

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (within your reach): repent ye, and believe the gospel."

But, this was WAY back at the beginning of His offer of the Kingdom to Israel! What did ANYONE know about the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah" back then, let alone believe it! NO, Yeshua`s gospel - Yeshua`s "good news" was well known to all the Jews! They read it at least once each year of their lives!

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings (gospel) of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, "Thy God reigneth!"

And, this is what Paul knew because he wrote to the Romans,

Romans 10:5-15 (KJV)

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,

"That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." (Leviticus 18:5)

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise,

"Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) (Deuteronomy 30:12)

7 Or, "Who shall descend into the deep?" (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (Deuteronomy 30:13)

8 But what saith it?

"The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart" (Deuteronomy 30:14):

that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (the Master Yeshua`), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (rescued; delivered). 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7)

Can you see how much Old Testament scripture is quoted in the New Testament?

When Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (good news) which I preached (heralded) unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved (rescued; delivered), if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto (I handed down to) you [the] first [things] of all that which I also received (and all that I received), how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas (Kefa, "Peter"), then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

The death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah Yeshua` was ADDED to the first things that Paul handed down to the Romans. See, Yeshua` spoke about the Kingdom He was to inherit from His ancestor David, but He was rejected by the leaders (the elders) of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") in the Sanhedrin, which consisted of 72 men, mostly of the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), Ts'duqqiym ("Sadducees"), and the Scribes (Transcribers of the Torah), as well as the priests and high priests (two of them that year), who controlled the Temple. Together, they constituted the government of the Jews (under the control of Rome). That's why He concluded Matthew 23 (the woes against the Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes) with ...

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." (Psalm 118:26)

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

Lazarus and the rich man:

Jesus was speaking to His disciples in parables, so when He spoke about Lazarus and the rich man, this was a parable that was among others that Jesus had been speaking about.

So we have to look at what the bible says. We are not at liberty to make things up as we go along. Although we die, and are buried, our souls go to heaven. Revelation explains this. There are souls in heaven during the tribulation, before the White Throne Judgment:

Revelation 6:9,"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held;"

These souls could even talk to God, Revelation 6:10, "And the cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy land true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood..."

So these verses alone tells us that our souls go to heaven, although we are buried when we die.

You start this with your statment, "We are not at liberty to make things up as we go along," but then you proceed to do JUST THAT!! "Souls" are "beings that breathe air." They are NOT "dead, immaterial parts of human beings!"

So, your VERY FIRST STATEMENT after this, you said, "Although we die, and are buried, our souls go to heaven." That's not right! You've made this up! Just WHERE in Scripture does it actually say, "our souls go to heaven" after we die?! Answer: IT DOESN'T! Revelation does NOT say that "there are souls in heaven during the tribulation!" It says there were souls (air-breathing beings) UNDER OR AT THE FOOT OF THE ALTAR!

You said, "These souls could even talk to God, Revelation 6:10, 'And they cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood...'."

Well, OF COURSE, they could talk and cry out! They were ALIVE AGAIN and breathing air! If they had been among those beheaded for the Messiah, they had their heads attached again!

We're not seeing the dead in these verses; we're seeing the LIVING!

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

The issue of the rich man and the beggar: What's important to consider is the bible says the beggar was "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom," Luke 16:22.

So how could this not be true if an angel of God carried the beggar into Abraham's bosom?

Because "angels" or messengers of God are sent out to gather us! They take us to Abraham's HAVEN or HARBOR or BAY or GULF! The Greek word is "kolpos." It can also mean "POCKET!" Most likely, it's in Israel.

On 8/7/2021 at 4:56 PM, biblelesson said:

The parable is explaining that somewhere after death, angels get involved with the righteous to carry them to a place of safety. But apparently the wicked is not carried to a place of safety, and they seem to be tormented. So maybe we don't fully understand the purpose of the White throne Judgment. Because none of those who are saved, and are with Christ will be judged at the White Throne Judgment. They will take part in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:6, "Blessed is holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

So, if the beggar was in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man could see Father Abraham, and ask Abraham for help, then it stands to reason that it's true that the beggar was in Abraham's bosom. So if the beggar was in Abraham's bosom, where was/is the rich man? The bible says the rich man was in torment of fire and looked over and saw Abraham and saw Lazarus in his bosom.

This is just a look into hadees = the Unseen = the Future. This is a scene from the sentencing of the Great White Throne Judgment. THAT'S when the flames begin. The rich man and Lazarus ("Eleazar") are both resurrected, Eleazar earlier at the First Resurrection when the Messiah returns to earth, and the rich man at the Second Resurrection, the Resurrection of the unjustified.

biblelesson · August 13, 2021

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You start this with your statment, "We are not at liberty to make things up as we go along," but then you proceed to do JUST THAT!! "Souls" are "beings that breathe air." They are NOT "dead, immaterial parts of human beings!"

So, your VERY FIRST STATEMENT after this, you said, "Although we die, and are buried, our souls go to heaven." That's not right! You've made this up! Just WHERE in Scripture does it actually say, "our souls go to heaven" after we die?! Answer: IT DOESN'T! Revelation does NOT say that "there are souls in heaven during the tribulation!" It says there were souls (air-breathing beings) UNDER OR AT THE FOOT OF THE ALTAR!

You said, "These souls could even talk to God, Revelation 6:10, 'And they cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood...'."

Well, OF COURSE, they could talk and cry out! They were ALIVE AGAIN and breathing air! If they had been among those beheaded for the Messiah, they had their heads attached again!

We're not seeing the dead in these verses; we're seeing the LIVING!

No, we are seeing the Dead. Discernment is called for here.

The souls in Revelation under the alter were killed, yet they are communicating with God. And based on this account, there are souls in heaven.

You are saying souls are those who are alive, and breathing, And that's true based on Revelation 16:3, and many other verses in the bible. But we are also called souls when we die based on the following:

1) Souls had been slain (killed) and were under the alter of God. Revelation 6:9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. Whose's alter were they under? How could those alive be given white robes, and be under God's alter? No, based on the simplicity of God's word, it's obvious souls who had been killed were under God's alter in Heaven.

Are you saying these souls didn't die, but they were under God's alter. If not, are you saying the bible is lying? What are you saying?

These souls ask God how long would it be before He avenge their blood, Revelation 6:10. So why avenge their blood? The reason why is because they were killed, and they were asking God to avenge their blood that was spilled from their death.

2) God spoke to the souls under the alter and told them to rest a little while until their fellow servants also and their brethren should be "killed as they were." Revelation 6:11. God said their brethren had to be killed like they had been killed. Therefore it is obvious these souls had been killed. They were dead.

It is absolutely clear that Revelation 6:9-11, is talking about people who had been killed, and were called souls in heaven resting. Another clue is they were given white robes, Revelation 6:11, And white robes were given unto every one of them..."

White robes were given to them because they were saints, and although they were in heaven, they would be resurrected when Christ descends from heaven, like everyone else who die in Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Retrobyter · August 14, 2021

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You are clearly mistaken about Luke 16. When it comes time for the judgment unto the lake of fire, there won't be any unfulfilled eternal judgments.

Shalom, Da Puppers.

You're right, but at the time the prophecy in Luke 16 was spoken (and later written down), it was still in the FUTURE! It's still future today! That's why the translator used the word "hadees," the "Unseen," to describe the event (not the "realm")!

When one thinks of this word as describing a "realm," the land of a "kingdom," one has fallen into the Greek influence of mythology! This is why so many well-meaning but mistaken Christians assume the Devil, haSatan, to be the ruler of Hades, and indeed equate him to the god Hades! He doesn't rule there; in fact, he FEARS going to the Lake of Fire! He's trying every way possible to get himself out of this prediction! But, we still read,

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

He is CONSTANTLY trying to thwart God's plan, but to no avail. God's Word stands immutable.

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Everyone will have been resurrected, whether unto life or eternal damnation. Neither will "death and the unseen realm" exist anymore. It clearly says that the rich man was in torments WHEN he lifted up his eyes in the unseen realm. Not only that, but he pleads with Abraham, [where it says that Lazarus went WHEN he died], that his brethren might not come to this place. Scripture says that after death (of the body) comes judgment. The rich man's brothers were still living in their mortal bodies... they had not yet died. Without a doubt, you should conclude that this is before the judgment of the second death. You arrive at your errant conclusion [about when this event is portrayed,] from your view that dead men cannot suffer feeling and or torment. You need to rethink your views on this matter. I stand behind the scriptures that I presented.

Again, drop the "realm" word; it's not befitting a Christian. You're right about some things here, but I believe that he wasn't told everything. See, part of the punishment is the regret and the uncertainty in knowing what happened in history. Why should he be told when that would only give him some relief? The rich man ASSUMED his brothers were still living in their mortal bodies. He just wasn't told otherwise. What did Avraham say?

Luke 16:27-31 (KJV)

27 Then he said,

"I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

29 Abraham saith unto him,

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

30 And he said,

"Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent!"

31 And he said unto him,

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

People don't study this out, thinking they already know what this means, but for kicks, let's look at the Greek:

Kata Lukan 16:27-31 (Berean Greek New Testament 2016)

27 Εἶπεν δέ ‘Ἐρωτῶ σε οὖν, πάτερ, ἵνα πέμψῃς αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός μου·
28 ἔχω γὰρ πέντε ἀδελφούς· ὅπως διαμαρτύρηται αὐτοῖς, ἵνα μὴ καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔλθωσιν εἰς τὸν τόπον τοῦτον τῆς βασάνου.’
29 Λέγει δὲ Ἀβραάμ ‘Ἔχουσι Μωϋσέα καὶ τοὺς προφήτας· ἀκουσάτωσαν αὐτῶν.’
30 Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν ‘Οὐχί, πάτερ Ἀβραάμ, ἀλλ’ ἐάν τις ἀπὸ νεκρῶν πορευθῇ πρὸς αὐτοὺς, μετανοήσουσιν.’
31 Εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ ‘Εἰ Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδ’* ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται.’”

I usually write this in English letters (ignoring the accents unless it's the rough breathing which is represented with an "h").

Kata Lukan 16:27-31 (Berean Greek New Testament 2016 transliterated)

27 Eipen de,

"Erootoo se oun, pater, hina pempsees auton eis ton oikon tou patros mou;
28 echoo gar pente adelphous: hopoos diamartureetai autois, hina mee kai autoi elthoosin eis ton topon touton tees basanou."

29 Legei de Abraam,

"Echousi Moousea kai tous profeetas; akousatoosan autoon."

30 Ho de eipen,

"Ouchi, pater Abraam, all' ean tis apo nekroon poreuthee pros autous, metanoeesousin."

31 Eipen de autoo,

"Ei Moouseoos kai toon profeetoon ouk akouousin, oud' 'ean tis ek nekroon anastee peistheesontai.'"

27 Eipen = 27 He (The once-rich man)-says
de, = but,
"Erootoo = "I-implore (present, indicative, active-1st person, singular)
se = you (singular)
oun, = then,
pater, = Father,
hina = so-that/that
pempsees = you-would-send (aorist, subjunctive, active-2nd person, singular)
auton = him (Eleazar/Lazarus)
eis = into
ton = the
oikon = house
tou = of-the
patros = father
mou; = of-me/my;
28 echoo = I-have/hold (present, indicative, active-1st person, singular)
gar = for
pente = five
adelphous: = brothers:
hopoos = so-that
diamartureetai = he-may-give-solemn-earnest-witness (present, subjunctive, middle/active-3rd person, singular)
autois, = to-them
hina = so-that
mee = not
kai = and/also
autoi = they
elthoosin = should-come (aorist, subjunctive, active-3rd person, plural)
eis = into
ton = the
topon = place
touton = this-one
tees = of-the
basanou." = torture."
29 Legei = 29 Says
de = but
Abraam, = Avraham/Abraham
"Echousi = "They-have/hold (present, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
Moousea = Mosheh/Moses
kai = and/also
tous = the
profeetas; = prophets;
akousatoosan = let-them-hear (aorist, imperative, active-3rd person, plural)
autoon." = them."
30 Ho = 30 The (goes with tis below)
de = but
eipen, = he-says,
"Ouchi, = "Definitely not,
pater = father
Abraam, = Avraham/Abraham,
all' = but
ean = if
tis = [the] someone
apo = away-from
nekroon = dead-ones
poreuthee = should-go (aorist, subjunctive, passive-3rd person, singular)
pros = to/toward
autous, = them,
metanoeesousin." = they-will-repent." (future, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
31 Eipen = He-says
de = but
autoo, = to-him,
"Ei = "If
Moouseoos = Mosheh/Moses
kai = and/also
toon = the
profeetoon = prophets
ouk = not
akouousin, = they-are-hearing, (present, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
oud' (oude) = neither-indeed/not-even
ean = if
tis = someone/one
ek = out-from
nekroon = dead-ones
anastee = should-rise (aorist, subjunctive, active-3rd person, singular)
peistheesontai." = will-they-be-persuaded." (future, indicative, passive-3rd person, plural)

Avraham has given him NO new information; he has provided him with universal truths that do NOT reveal the current timing. He's just going along with the "rich" man's arguments.

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Daniel didn't pray ["he began to pray to confess his people's sins and ask for God's prophecy through Jeremiah to be FULFILLED!"] for God to FULFILL the 70 years. But he did pray that God would end the desolation. He did... because of God's mercy. But they were not fulfilled. The decree to end the desolation in allowing the children of Israel to return AS WELL AS the vessels of the house of the Lord was fulfilled by Cyrus. But the 70 years was not fulfilled. The 1st year of Cyrus was only the 67th year since the desolation of Jerusalem had begun in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim, Dan 1:1,2. Historical records don't tell us exactly what months the desolation had begun and ended, only that it was the 67th year.

Cute. Oh, how soon that which we read is forgotten! Here's Daniel's prayer:

Daniel 9:1-19 (KJV)

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said,

"O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 "O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. 14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name."

He can PRAY for the desolations (which is what the 70 years are all about) to end without it ending until God's timing. AND, God HAS been known to end punishments BEFORE the promised "end" occurred! Take, for instance, David's punishment, of which he was given a choice of three things, for the sin of numbering the people. (2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21).

Daniel, by the way, went with the FIRST deportation! He and his companions were taken in 605 B.C. while Jehoiakim was still king in his third year. BUT, the Temple wasn't destroyed until the 9th of Av in 586 B.C., and with it, the final deportation to Bavel. Jeremiah 29:10 is where Yirmeyahuw reveals the seventy years of desolations.

Jeremiah 29:10-13 (KJV)

10 For thus saith the LORD,

"That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you,"

saith the LORD,

"thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you,"

saith the LORD:

"and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you,"

saith the LORD;

"and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

By praying, Daniel WAS fulfilling this prophecy!

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

But Jesus, and John fill us in on the missing info. When Jerusalem is trodden down in the coming future great tribulation, Jesus says that it is so that it is to fulfill the times of the Gentiles.

Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And John tells us that Jerusalem will be trodden down for 42 months:

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Newsflash: We're already IN the Great Tribulation! It started in the First Century A.D. and will continue until we see the sun, moon, and stars event! The Great Tribulation is NOT the seven years of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9! Whoever started that rumor did us ALL a great disservice!

Luke 21:24 was ABOUT the First Century, namely the events in the Diaspora and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Gentiles have been treading down Jerusalem ever since! The mere fact that Jerusalem is still a four-way divided city is proof of that! The Muslims in charge of the Temple Mount is proof of that! When Yeshua` returns and becomes Israel's King, then He will end the Gentile invasion.

Joel 3:1-21 (KJV)

1 "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with (judge) them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render ME a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your OWN head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your OWN head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; 'Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, "I am strong."'"

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 "Let the heathen (Hebrew: goyim = Gentiles) be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen (Hebrew: goyim = Gentiles) round about."

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of [the LORD'S] decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more."

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Wrong conclusions about scripture leads to wrong doctrine.

Be Blessed

The PuP

Well, you're certainly right about that!

Retrobyter · August 14, 2021

On 8/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, Da Puppers said:

You are clearly mistaken about Luke 16. When it comes time for the judgment unto the lake of fire, there won't be any unfulfilled eternal judgments.

Shalom, Da Puppers.

You're right, but at the time the prophecy in Luke 16 was spoken (and later written down), it was still in the FUTURE! It's still future today! That's why the translator used the word "hadees," the "Unseen," to describe the event (not the "realm")!

When one thinks of this word as describing a "realm," the land of a "kingdom," one has fallen into the Greek influence of mythology! This is why so many well-meaning but mistaken Christians assume the Devil, haSatan, to be the ruler of Hades, and indeed equate him to the god Hades! He doesn't rule there; in fact, he FEARS going to the Lake of Fire! He's trying every way possible to get himself out of this prediction! But, we still read,

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

He is CONSTANTLY trying to thwart God's plan, but to no avail. God's Word stands immutable.

On 8/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, Da Puppers said:

Everyone will have been resurrected, whether unto life or eternal damnation. Neither will "death and the unseen realm" exist anymore. It clearly says that the rich man was in torments WHEN he lifted up his eyes in the unseen realm. Not only that, but he pleads with Abraham, [where it says that Lazarus went WHEN he died], that his brethren might not come to this place. Scripture says that after death (of the body) comes judgment. The rich man's brothers were still living in their mortal bodies... they had not yet died. Without a doubt, you should conclude that this is before the judgment of the second death. You arrive at your errant conclusion [about when this event is portrayed,] from your view that dead men cannot suffer feeling and or torment. You need to rethink your views on this matter. I stand behind the scriptures that I presented.

Again, drop the "realm" word; it's not befitting a Christian. You're right about some things here, but I believe that he wasn't told everything. See, part of the punishment is the regret and the uncertainty in knowing what happened in history. Why should he be told when that would only give him some relief? The rich man ASSUMED his brothers were still living in their mortal bodies. He just wasn't told otherwise. What did Avraham say?

Luke 16:27-31 (KJV)

27 Then he said,

"I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

29 Abraham saith unto him,

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

30 And he said,

"Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent!"

31 And he said unto him,

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

People don't study this out, thinking they already know what this means, but for kicks, let's look at the Greek:

Kata Lukan 16:27-31 (Berean Greek New Testament 2016)

27 Εἶπεν δέ ‘Ἐρωτῶ σε οὖν, πάτερ, ἵνα πέμψῃς αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός μου·
28 ἔχω γὰρ πέντε ἀδελφούς· ὅπως διαμαρτύρηται αὐτοῖς, ἵνα μὴ καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔλθωσιν εἰς τὸν τόπον τοῦτον τῆς βασάνου.’
29 Λέγει δὲ Ἀβραάμ ‘Ἔχουσι Μωϋσέα καὶ τοὺς προφήτας· ἀκουσάτωσαν αὐτῶν.’
30 Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν ‘Οὐχί, πάτερ Ἀβραάμ, ἀλλ’ ἐάν τις ἀπὸ νεκρῶν πορευθῇ πρὸς αὐτοὺς, μετανοήσουσιν.’
31 Εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ ‘Εἰ Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδ’* ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται.’”

I usually write this in English letters (ignoring the accents unless it's the rough breathing which is represented with an "h").

Kata Lukan 16:27-31 (Berean Greek New Testament 2016 transliterated)

27 Eipen de,

"Erootoo se oun, pater, hina pempsees auton eis ton oikon tou patros mou;
28 echoo gar pente adelphous: hopoos diamartureetai autois, hina mee kai autoi elthoosin eis ton topon touton tees basanou."

29 Legei de Abraam,

"Echousi Moousea kai tous profeetas; akousatoosan autoon."

30 Ho de eipen,

"Ouchi, pater Abraam, all' ean tis apo nekroon poreuthee pros autous, metanoeesousin."

31 Eipen de autoo,

"Ei Moouseoos kai toon profeetoon ouk akouousin, oud' 'ean tis ek nekroon anastee peistheesontai.'"

27 Eipen = 27 He (The once-rich man)-says
de, = but,
"Erootoo = "I-implore (present, indicative, active-1st person, singular)
se = you (singular)
oun, = then,
pater, = Father,
hina = so-that/that
pempsees = you-would-send (aorist, subjunctive, active-2nd person, singular)
auton = him (Eleazar/Lazarus)
eis = into
ton = the
oikon = house
tou = of-the
patros = father
mou; = of-me/my;
28 echoo = I-have/hold (present, indicative, active-1st person, singular)
gar = for
pente = five
adelphous: = brothers:
hopoos = so-that
diamartureetai = he-may-give-solemn-earnest-witness (present, subjunctive, middle/active-3rd person, singular)
autois, = to-them
hina = so-that
mee = not
kai = and/also
autoi = they
elthoosin = should-come (aorist, subjunctive, active-3rd person, plural)
eis = into
ton = the
topon = place
touton = this-one
tees = of-the
basanou." = torture."
29 Legei = 29 Says
de = but
Abraam, = Avraham/Abraham
"Echousi = "They-have/hold (present, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
Moousea = Mosheh/Moses
kai = and/also
tous = the
profeetas; = prophets;
akousatoosan = let-them-hear (aorist, imperative, active-3rd person, plural)
autoon." = them."
30 Ho = 30 The (goes with tis below)
de = but
eipen, = he-says,
"Ouchi, = "Definitely not,
pater = father
Abraam, = Avraham/Abraham,
all' = but
ean = if
tis = [the] someone
apo = away-from
nekroon = dead-ones
poreuthee = should-go (aorist, subjunctive, passive-3rd person, singular)
pros = to/toward
autous, = them,
metanoeesousin." = they-will-repent." (future, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
31 Eipen = He-says
de = but
autoo, = to-him,
"Ei = "If
Moouseoos = Mosheh/Moses
kai = and/also
toon = the
profeetoon = prophets
ouk = not
akouousin, = they-are-hearing, (present, indicative, active-3rd person, plural)
oud' (oude) = neither-indeed/not-even
ean = if
tis = someone/one
ek = out-from
nekroon = dead-ones
anastee = should-rise (aorist, subjunctive, active-3rd person, singular)
peistheesontai." = will-they-be-persuaded." (future, indicative, passive-3rd person, plural)

Avraham has given him NO new information; he has provided him with universal truths that do NOT reveal the current timing. He's just going along with the "rich" man's arguments.

On 8/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, Da Puppers said:

Daniel didn't pray ["he began to pray to confess his people's sins and ask for God's prophecy through Jeremiah to be FULFILLED!"] for God to FULFILL the 70 years. But he did pray that God would end the desolation. He did... because of God's mercy. But they were not fulfilled. The decree to end the desolation in allowing the children of Israel to return AS WELL AS the vessels of the house of the Lord was fulfilled by Cyrus. But the 70 years was not fulfilled. The 1st year of Cyrus was only the 67th year since the desolation of Jerusalem had begun in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim, Dan 1:1,2. Historical records don't tell us exactly what months the desolation had begun and ended, only that it was the 67th year.

Cute. Oh, how soon that which we read is forgotten! Here's Daniel's prayer:

Daniel 9:1-19 (KJV)

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said,

"O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 "O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. 14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name."

He can PRAY for the desolations (which is what the 70 years are all about) to end without it ending until God's timing. AND, God HAS been known to end punishments BEFORE the promised "end" occurred! Take, for instance, David's punishment, of which he was given a choice of three things, for the sin of numbering the people. (2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21).

Daniel, by the way, went with the FIRST deportation! He and his companions were taken in 605 B.C. while Jehoiakim was still king in his third year. BUT, the Temple wasn't destroyed until the 9th of Av in 586 B.C., and with it, the final deportation to Bavel. Jeremiah 29:10 is where Yirmeyahuw reveals the seventy years of desolations.

Jeremiah 29:10-13 (KJV)

10 For thus saith the LORD,

"That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you,"

saith the LORD,

"thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you,"

saith the LORD:

"and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you,"

saith the LORD;

"and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

By praying, Daniel WAS fulfilling this prophecy!

On 8/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, Da Puppers said:

But Jesus, and John fill us in on the missing info. When Jerusalem is trodden down in the coming future great tribulation, Jesus says that it is so that it is to fulfill the times of the Gentiles.

Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And John tells us that Jerusalem will be trodden down for 42 months:

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.