No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[R. Hartono]

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

 

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

1 Thes 4:14 God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him - Paul wrote this long after Jesus ascension as evidence there are no souls yet taken to heaven after Lord Jesus ascension.

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....THIS WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

 John 14:3 ....I will come again n receive you unto Myself.

Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was resurrected. Because Jesus told Mary not to touch her as He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

So the saints shall be literally rcvd when Jesus come again to take wise virgins home.                 

Edited September 17, 2021 by R. Hartono

[missmuffet]

Are you promoting soul sleep? Are you saying all souls do not go immediately to heaven or hades after they die?

[Who me]

And, is where the departed a major issue or one of secondary importance.

 

The important question is, did they know Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

If they did then we will meet them in heaven.

 

My personal view is that as God is outside of time that when we die, we to move outside of time into where ever God is.

 

[Who me]

What I meant to add is that Jesus returns with his angels and those who are with him in heaven. The rapture is for those still alive at his coming.And, is where the departed a major issue or one of secondary importance.

 

The important question is, did they know Jesus as Lord and Saviour?

If they did then we will meet them in heaven.

 

My personal view is that as God is outside of time that when we die, we to move outside of time into where ever God is.

 

[Riverwalker]

No, on his resurrection the place known as Paradise (where the righteous lost awaiting the coming of the Lord) was emptied and all were gone to heaven now able to stand before God washed in the blood of the lamb. Before Jesus it was righteousness was accounted to them, but when Jesus did his work. Righteousness was theirs (re Lazarus and the Rich Man)

The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with God

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

And that we are seated...now....in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ 

Right now, as we stumble upon this earth, we are also seated in heaven places with God.  Kind of like the Matrix Movies, we are hear waiting to to be there,

Edited August 14, 2021 by Riverwalker

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Are you promoting soul sleep? Are you saying all souls do not go immediately to heaven or hades after they die?

The souls who live in paradise are comforted n do not sleep like human, its their bodies that is called 'sleep' because they r waiting for heaven inheritance when Lord Jesus resurrect their bodies n take them to the cloud in 1 Thes 4:16.

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven to gather all saints (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....this will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.      

Edited February 5, 2021 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Who me said:

My personal view is that as God is outside of time that when we die, we to move outside of time into where ever God is.

 

8 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

No, on his resurrection the place known as Paradise (were the righteous lost awaiting the coming of the Lord) was emptied and all were gone to heaven now able to stand before God washed in the blood of the lamb. Before Jesus it was righteousness was accounted to them, but when Jesus did his work. Righteousness was theirs (re Lazarus and the Rich Man)

The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with God

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

And that we are seated...now....in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ 

God will raise the dead in Christ n take them to heaven in 1 Thes 4:16 with the sound of mighty rapture trumpet, otherwise will God send those souls alrdy in heaven to their bodies in graves on earth n then take them back to heaven ? Has He got no job to do ?

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven to gather all saints (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....this will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.    

Edited February 5, 2021 by R. Hartono

[missmuffet]

On 2/4/2021 at 4:10 PM, R. Hartono said:

The souls who live in paradise are comforted n do not sleep like human, its their bodies that is called 'sleep' because they r waiting for heaven inheritance when Lord Jesus resurrect their bodies n take them to the cloud in 1 Thes 4:16.

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven to gather all saints (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....this will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.      

I don't support your theology.

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I don't support your theology.

Its abt the Harvest, the harvest of saints is not gathered individually one by one to heaven when the saints die, but awaiting the end of days when the saints altogether are gathered, with the dead in Christ being resurrected first as in 1 Thes 4:16.

^{Matt 13:30}  .....let both grow together until the harvest. (Jesus said this 2000 years ago and we are still awaiting the harvest).

Edited February 6, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Who me]

On 2/5/2021 at 12:53 AM, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

does it say their in heaven?  for sure the dead have to brought from somewhere but it doesn't say they were in heaven

Doesn't say they are not.