No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Brother Duke]

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is really very simple: GOD is a triune being and we are created in His image and after His likeness. Paul got it right: Spirit, soul and body.

The soul is your life.  The two words mean the same thing.  Hebrew (nephesh).  Life(force?) is nephesh and soul is nephesh.  The bible also says the soul is in your blood which makes sense because without blood you die.

 

Biologically speaking the blood(soul/life) tranfers the spirit(pneuma/breath) to your body.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Brother Duke
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[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

The soul is your life.  The two words mean the same thing.  Hebrew (nephesh).  Life(force?) is nephesh and soul is nephesh.  The bible also says the soul is in your blood which makes sense because without blood you die.

 

Biologically speaking the blood(soul/life) tranfers the spirit(pneuma/breath) to your body.

Sorry, but the spirit brings life: God blew a spirit into Adam.

Strong's KJV use for this Hebew word in Genesis 2:7:

 soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), miscellaneous (47x).

Definition:

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
...that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
...living being
...living being (with life in the blood)
...the man himself, self, person or individual
...seat of the appetites
...seat of emotions and passions
...activity of mind
......dubious
...activity of the will
......dubious
...activity of the character
......dubious

Soul in the Greek for Paul's "Spirit, soul and body."

KJV usage:  soul (58x), life (40x), mind (3x), heart (1x), heartily (with G1537) (1x), not translated (2x).

Definition:

breath
...the breath of life
......the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
.........of animals
.........of men

...life

...that in which there is life
......a living being, a living soul

the soul
...the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
...the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
...the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

It is obvious that the word "Soul" has been used different ways in the bible: for an entire being, as those on Paul's wrecked ship. It is used as a part of the human that is separate from the body - not destroyed when the body dies.  

The soul is distinct from the spirit because Paul separated spirit, soul and body, and the word of God can divide between soul and spirit. 

It is with the human spirit that we interface with God and He with us. It is with our soul that we interface with other humans. 

Since "soul" is used in so many ways, it is a difficult subject.

 

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

The soul is your life.  The two words mean the same thing.  Hebrew (nephesh).  Life(force?) is nephesh and soul is nephesh.  The bible also says the soul is in your blood which makes sense because without blood you die.

 

Biologically speaking the blood(soul/life) tranfers the spirit(pneuma/breath) to your body.

Alright Brother Duke, I had this down to a very simple equation of A + B = C. Now you come along and start to bring in some Hebrew and some logic and facts here ---- just mudding up the waters here.  

Now you have me all confused and I might have to come up with another equation..... this is going to take time but..... I am sure you can go right back to your gardening as though nothing happened - throw a grenade in and go back to your cucumbers or tomatoes or maybe even that funny wacky stuff people are smoking (by the way, do you also provide those medical cards to keep things legal?)....

So, no more "biological speaking or Hebrew talk", let's keep this simple - dirt and air breathed.... Charlie

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks and I hear that! But we can not get around A+B = C ... I think it is in Gen. 2:7 or so... 

I will agree with you that MOST folks are on your side of the fence here but perhaps you might tell me how you read 2:7... 

I don’t believe I am reading anything more or less into it... 

Thanks, Charlie 

We both should agree that we cannot form doctrine from an isolate verse, but from all verses on a subject. Genesis 2:7 is only one verse.

I disagree with your a + b = c  with your definitions.
IF a = spirit, b = soul = and c = body, then let's let d = complete human

So God breathed a with b into c, and the results was d and God chose at that time to call D a living soul.

From Paul we know that spirit and soul are not the same, but seem to be tied very tightly together: Only the word of God is sharp enough to divide between them. That is why I think when God breathed - it was spirit plus soul that was breathed into Adam.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

We both should agree that we cannot form doctrine from an isolate verse, but from all verses on a subject. Genesis 2:7 is only one verse.

I disagree with your a + b = c  with your definitions.
IF a = spirit, b = soul = and c = body, then let's let d = complete human

So God breathed a with b into c, and the results was d and God chose at that time to call D a living soul.

From Paul we know that spirit and soul are not the same, but seem to be tied very tightly together: Only the word of God is sharp enough to divide between them. That is why I think when God breathed - it was spirit plus soul that was breathed into Adam.

Alright Iamlamad, I can see you failed Algebra and are just trying to get me confused. You can't change God's formula because there are some / more than some verses down the line that SEEM to contradict THIS FORMULA. No, we have to look and interpret THOSE LATER VERSES using THIS formula and they will then speak a different message to us. We can not have a floating definition of what a "living soul" is depending on when these translated words are used and in what context.

Do you really believe God would give us (not me) THE formula in the beginning of all things man and then contradict HIMSELF in later books? I simply am saying that He is quite specific in identifying how HE made man and it is up to us to learn it, accept it and use it going forward even when WE think is says something more- where We expand the formula.  

Now, if you don't believe the A + B = C in 2:7, then what does it say or mean ---- and you can not skip to some later verses in Paul or whoever or wherever to use as your support ..... because they can not contradict HIS formula, Charlie

 

[Brother Duke]

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Alright Brother Duke, I had this down to a very simple equation of A + B = C. Now you come along and start to bring in some Hebrew and some logic and facts here ---- just mudding up the waters here.  

Now you have me all confused and I might have to come up with another equation..... this is going to take time but..... I am sure you can go right back to your gardening as though nothing happened - throw a grenade in and go back to your cucumbers or tomatoes or maybe even that funny wacky stuff people are smoking (by the way, do you also provide those medical cards to keep things legal?)....

So, no more "biological speaking or Hebrew talk", let's keep this simple - dirt and air breathed.... Charlie

Will the grenade slice and deliver the cukes to me in one step. 

[Brother Duke]

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but the spirit brings life: God blew a spirit into Adam.

Strong's KJV use for this Hebew word in Genesis 2:7:

 soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), miscellaneous (47x).

Definition:

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
...that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
...living being
...living being (with life in the blood)
...the man himself, self, person or individual
...seat of the appetites
...seat of emotions and passions
...activity of mind
......dubious
...activity of the will
......dubious
...activity of the character
......dubious

Soul in the Greek for Paul's "Spirit, soul and body."

KJV usage:  soul (58x), life (40x), mind (3x), heart (1x), heartily (with G1537) (1x), not translated (2x).

Definition:

breath
...the breath of life
......the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
.........of animals
.........of men

...life

...that in which there is life
......a living being, a living soul

the soul
...the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
...the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
...the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

It is obvious that the word "Soul" has been used different ways in the bible: for an entire being, as those on Paul's wrecked ship. It is used as a part of the human that is separate from the body - not destroyed when the body dies.  

The soul is distinct from the spirit because Paul separated spirit, soul and body, and the word of God can divide between soul and spirit. 

It is with the human spirit that we interface with God and He with us. It is with our soul that we interface with other humans. 

Since "soul" is used in so many ways, it is a difficult subject.

 

Lev 17:11 'For the life(soul) of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

 

In a sense what you say is true.  The blood(soul) transfers breath(oxygen) and food to your body(cells) giving life.  

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We cannot compare apples to oranges. There is a difference in saints dying (absent with the body is to be present with the Lord) and the day of Resurrection. Are you confusing the two? 

Don't confuse sleep with death, either. Occasionally the bible says sleep when it is death. At a saint's death, there is no "sleep," but the spirit goes to be with the Father. The church has believed this since the days of Paul. Why would you disagree?

MILLIONS of believers have died in Christ, and they are all in heaven now. They are NOT SLEEPING! "Soul sleep" is a false doctrine. 

On the other hand, there are some (I hope I am one) who will NOT die or "sleep" in death before the rapture, but will rather be caught up. That will be the second part of Paul's "rapture" equation: we that are alive and remain (unto His coming).

It was you who disagreed with me originally.

That's not what Paul says, so either Paul is lying or you are confused. To be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord is just Paul comforting them telling them that you do not need to be afraid of dying, when we leave this body we will "EVENTUALLY" be with the Lord forever. Just like Daniel will EVENTUALY be with the Lord forever, but not until the END.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

That's not what Paul says, so either Paul is lying or you are confused. To be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord is just Paul comforting them telling than that you do not need to be afraid of dying, when we leave this body we will "EVENTUALLY" be with the Lord forever. Just like Daniel will EVENTUALY be with the Lord forever, but not until the END.

Now this is good stuff! (Sorry for the technical term).

By the way, it says, “RATHER” be absent from the body......  this has to be one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses in the Bible.... by so, so many- they had / have their own agenda and as we have all heard before, “follow the money”.

Charlie

[Justin Adams]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

By the way, it says, “RATHER” be absent from the body

I think you are all correct. Subjective time is what it is. Sometimes the little ideas have us go off in the wrong direction. Often hyperbole (a much used Hebraic method) is what it is. A way to get our focus on the correct track.

If you have ever been involved in a Rabbinic 'food fight' you will know that throwing ideas is a much vaulted Israeli thing. Afterwards, they calmly drink tea.

And just for the record 'saints' is a poor translation of Hagio and should be rendered in the NT as it is in the Tanakh. Holy Ones.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Justin Adams