No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Brother Duke]

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

"No saints are in heaven now until the rapture."

But they are, right there in Rev. 4 and 5:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ... 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

These heavenly elders are most certainly saints. Or are Enoch and Elijah not saints?

The 24 elders have always been a mystery.  Perhaps they are some of the dead that rose when Christ was resurrected.

Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Was the rich man and Lazarus "sleeping?" Maybe they were talking in their sleep.

Iamlamad, now you know that Lazarus is a parable and not a real event.... ?

This has been a very interesting topic on its own recently.... 

Charlie

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Don't be silly! Of course Paul did not lie. You just did not understand Paul.  Hmmm. It seems Peter talked about Paul's writing - that for some his writing was difficult.

And of course Gabriel would not lie either. No one in the bible was on purpose trying to deceive as they wrote. That idea is silly.

CEB  Listen, I’m telling you a secret: All of us won’t die, but we will all be changed
CJB  Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
CEV  I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed.

Paul is not talking about sleep, when our eyes close and we dream - he is talking about dying. 

Paul also wrote "then we who are alive and remain (it is understood to also be in Christ as the first group who were the dead in Christ) shall be caught up...

So Paul is telling us that some believers won't have to die because Jesus will come before they die. WHEN will this change come? For that we refer back to 1 Thes. All will be changed (get resurrection bodies) at Christ's coming.

Therefore, quit trying to compare apples to oranges.  Here in these passages Paul is not talking about believers dying of old age.

(So, Paul's says ALL SLEEP, except those who are LIVING at Jesus Christs return, but you can't get that? Why? Its pretty basic stuff.)

OF COURSE I GET IT! It it what I just wrote in other words: billions of believers have died. Paul called them the Dead in Christ. And when Jesus comes, there will be some who are alive and in Christ. They will be caught up. 

AGain I say, don't compare apples with oranges. Here Paul is talking about a specific moment in time, when Christ comes for His Bride. These scriptures only mention the dead in Christ in passing. It says nothing about what happens when a believer dies. 

However, Paul DOES speak of them.

¹³ Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [^[g]in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].

¹⁴ For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].

As you can see from these scriptures, the dead in Christ are WITH CHRIST where He is. That is why Paul wrote that the dead in Christ come WITH Him. He leaves heaven for earth (the air only: no touchdown) and the dead in Christ come WITH Him for they are there WITH Him now. (This is not a difficult concept - but has been church doctrine for centuries.)

Here is where you end up in la la land:

the dead shall be raised incorruptible(WHEN? At the Last Trump, or when the Harvest/Church Age ends, NOT WHEN THEY DIE !! Its pretty basic stuff)

Paul is now talking about the dead BODIES. Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead in Christ WITH HIM, Raise their dead bodies and change them, and then each human spirit will join once again with their new resurrection body (changed). Do you not understand "resurrection?" Do you not understand the difference between flesh bodies and spirits?

Yes, OF COURSE it will be when Christ comes. But billions will have died in Christ centuries before that day. And when they die, their spirits go to be with the Lord. This has been church doctrine for centuries  - indeed - since the beginning. The church is not going to change for you and your theories. You can bet on that. That is why the spirits of those who have died in Christ come WITH Christ as He descends from heaven to the earth.

If you disagree with this, you are disagreeing with church doctrine that has been established for centuries. Do so at your own peril. 

⁶ So then, we are always full of good and hopeful and confident courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the home with the Lord [that is promised us].

⁷ For we walk by faith [we ^[b]regulate our lives and conduct ourselves by our conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, with trust and holy fervor; thus we walk] not by sight or appearance.

⁸ [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.

Note: "at home in the body" means fleshly body is alive. "Abroad from home with the Lord" means we are not up there with Him.

In vs 8: "away from home out of the body" means the body has DIED. The spirit leaves the body upon death. "at home with the Lord" means up there in heaven with Him." But this is speaking of the spirit man, because it is separated from the body. 

In summary, when a believer dies, their SPIRIT goes to be with the Lord. 

This is very simple and easy to understand. It has been church doctrine since the beginning. 

 

The harvest is gathered at the end of times, including all of us. 

The harvest of dead saints like Daniel is not yet gathered to heaven now. They are placed in beautiful paradise with Abraham n will recognize the voice of Jesus calling them to heaven at the Rapture of 1 Thes 4:16.

Edited February 12, 2021 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Iamlamad, now you know that Lazarus is a parable and not a real event.... ?

This has been a very interesting topic on its own recently.... 

Charlie

It speaks abt the real situation when people die, their souls go to gehena, the paradise part for good people or the fire part for bad people.

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Are the parables Christ told real or were they just examples ?

Are the evil tormented before they are judged ?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Did Jesus ever give meaningless parable not based on truth ?

God doesnt compromise with sins, the judgment of Great White Throne will decide the future of those  unbelievers before the new Heaven n the new Earth begins. God will call and place all souls from bad part of Hades be4 hades is destroyed n disappeared.

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Was the rich man and Lazarus "sleeping?" Maybe they were talking in their sleep.

Imho Its their body that is called 'sleeping' because all are awaiting, the harvest for the good souls of saints n the judgment for the bad attitudes.

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I do not support your theology.

When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God

It really doesn't mater, I proved I am correct on what the bible says, and you have no argument against my points, so my points stand. 

We do not face judgment the moment we die, I proved this via the scriptures, if you read it you couldn't argue against it, else you would have to argue against the bible. ONCE AGAIN, if people are judged at death, then what is the Second Resurrection all about? You cant answer that without admitting that the wicked are judged in 1000 years. Who are judged in Rev. 20:4 after Jesus Second Coming? Its the Martyrs, so when did they die? During the 70th week, when are they being judged ? AFTER the 70th week. 

I do not go into a a debate without the answers, I don't just guess sister. If I don't know I either stay silent or research, pray, seek Gods face, if I am making a  point, I understand it.

God Bless. 

[Revelation Man]

On 2/11/2021 at 12:52 PM, iamlamad said:

Don't be silly! Of course Paul did not lie. You just did not understand Paul.  Hmmm. It seems Peter talked about Paul's writing - that for some his writing was difficult.

And of course Gabriel would not lie either. No one in the bible was on purpose trying to deceive as they wrote. That idea is silly.

CEB  Listen, I’m telling you a secret: All of us won’t die, but we will all be changed
CJB  Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
CEV  I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed.

So, you think by changing the bible translation to not everyone will DIE makes it only mean die, even though it means they sleep or rest, even though that is not what it means and I can prove it. To SLEEP means to die then rest. 

I never change translations to prove a point, I stay with the KJV or if I see someone is confused by the KJV I change to the HCSB. Changing a translation to try and prove a point only leads you down deeper rabbit holes.

1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You can try to AVOID this verse, but it is not going away brother.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHEN is the DEAD raised according to Paul? At the LAST TRUMP !! 

Now, you can believe we go straight to heaven all you want to brother, Paul says it is not so, the DEAD are RAISED at the LAST TRUMP !!

How do you misconstrue this? So, if they have been DEAD for 500 years, 250 years, 1900 years, then they have been RESTING or SLEEPING as Paul stated, He never just flat out stated they died and went straight to Heaven anywhere. You just believed that, so it became a FACTOID unto you, even though its just not factual brother. 

So, if we go straight to Heaven or Hell, why are those who died during the 70th week, you know the Martyrs, judged in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus' Second Coming? And why is it that those you say go straight to hell aren't really judged until the Second Resurrection after Jesus' 1000 year rule on earth? 

And Daniel is told he will be raised up at the very end to stand in his lot. God doesn't change. You have just misconstrued the passage brother. 

 

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"No saints are in heaven now until the rapture."

But they are, right there in Rev. 4 and 5:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ... 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

These heavenly elders are most certainly saints. Or are Enoch and Elijah not saints?

The 24 Elders are the Raptured Church. Of course the Raptured Church is in Heaven during the 70th week, which starts via the Rev. 4:1 RAPTURE.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Iamlamad, now you know that Lazarus is a parable and not a real event.... ?

This has been a very interesting topic on its own recently.... 

Charlie

I disagree. It was a story, not a parable. But even if it was a parable, it was a parable about a CERTAIN rich man.  In other words, it was a parable about a real human being.  And even if not, It was TRUTH, for Jesus could say nothing but TRUTH. 

The truth is, when people die, their spirit with the soul leaves the body and is escorted either to heaven or to hell. 

After 2000 years of church history, we have many testimonies of people who have died, experienced what came next, but were prayed back to their bodies, to know what really happens: just what Paul said, when we are absent from our body we are present with the Lord, if indeed we are born again.

If not born again, the human spirit is dragged by demonic spirits down into hell.  I know one man who testified of dying 4 times in a row, in a short period of time. The first three times his spirit went down to the gates of hell - he saw the fires - but a voice spoke and he went back into his body. The third time going down he began to repent, and continued as he went back into his body. The 4th time he died, his spirit started up, not down, because he was then born again. This time he understood what God spoke: it was not time for him to die because he had work to do.  He lived many years after these events.

Soul-sleep is nothing but a MYTH. Human spirits do not need sleep.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Are the parables Christ told real or were they just examples?

Did the landowner really hire the laborers for his vineyard?

Did the enemy sow real tares in the wheat field or were they people?

Was the prodigal son real or does the story reflect the Kingdoms of Judah and the Kingdoms of Joseph/Israel?

 

Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Are the evil tormented before they are judged at the end of time?

 

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The answer is yes, torment comes before judgment. Hell is just a temporary holding place. Have you not read ANY of the many testimonies of people whom Jesus has taken to hell to show people it is a real place? All the testimonies agree with the written word. Eventually hell will be emptied out and they will all stand before God to be judged. 

Finally:

 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

²⁰ And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Does this sound like a parable? It is about real people. It is not a parable.