No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Mary8]

From a sermon, "Eternity: What Awaits After Death."  Name of preacher is not on the article.

"In the Old Testament when a believer died, their bodies went into the grave and their soul and spirit went to Paradise. But when Jesus died on the cross, was buried and he rose again, on the day of his ascension something changed.

In Ephesians 4:8-10 we are told,

'Therefore He says, ‘When he ascended on high He lead captivity captive And gave gifts to men. (9) Now this, ‘He ascended’ – what does it mean but that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth. (10) He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.'

This passage says that Jesus descended into Hades and he lead captivity captive, he emptied Paradise and took all the believing dead with him to the third heaven. There is no longer an intermediate Heaven; Christ took all the Old Testament saints and all those believers to Heaven. Now when a believer dies their body goes into the grave to await the resurrection and their soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in Heaven."

[suzan344]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....THIS WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

                 

The true issue here is knowing the difference between a soul and a human spirit.  A soul is a seed of God given to men by Jesus. The human spirit is a less viable construct than a soul.  It has existed since the start.  The human spirit either goes to Sheol or Paradise.  The human soul is either judged and toss into the lake of fire or ascends to New earth.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Mary8 said:

From a sermon, "Eternity: What Awaits After Death."  Name of preacher is not on the article.

"In the Old Testament when a believer died, their bodies went into the grave and their soul and spirit went to Paradise. But when Jesus died on the cross, was buried and he rose again, on the day of his ascension something changed.

In Ephesians 4:8-10 we are told,

'Therefore He says, ‘When he ascended on high He lead captivity captive And gave gifts to men. (9) Now this, ‘He ascended’ – what does it mean but that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth. (10) He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.'

This passage says that Jesus descended into Hades and he lead captivity captive, he emptied Paradise and took all the believing dead with him to the third heaven. There is no longer an intermediate Heaven; Christ took all the Old Testament saints and all those believers to Heaven. Now when a believer dies their body goes into the grave to await the resurrection and their soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in Heaven."

If the dying of the flesh body makes alive the spirit body,  and you say only the 'spirit' goes on to heaven, then where is that spirit body till the Lord returns? 


that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die 
SO once the flesh dies, SOME BODY is made alive.  Now, I personally do not see a separation of time here. 

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen 
I also believe that Christ can not rise without all those who have died rising. (l liken it to the 'law of gravity'.  God works through laws.  

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
Once again, it is sown, it is raised.  Where is this TIME span found written?

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
AGAIN, IT is written without any mention of a 'time in between'

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
AND there are two bodies

...and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
THAT SLEPT, is past tense (as I see it)

And this always gets me, 

 

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;


Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now maybe you can understand my confusion on this subject, in which I seem to stand with a tiny number, by believing that GOD gave us the two bodies and in one or the other we shall always be.  

Many say "just the soul/spirit" goes on then when Christ returns something happens and they go get their old body which is made into a new one at that time or something like that and then I guess they raise back up and then maybe the wrath of God is poured out and I wont even get to those who have been vaporized, or cremated (do they all go to a cremation part of the world for theirs?)   What about those who died in SPACE?  i stop.  

but what I can't figure out and no body seems to be able to tell is WHY?  Why don't we immediately use the body, the celestial body, the heavenly body GOD gave us AS SOON as it is needed?  Why wouldn't God just have us raise in that body?  Do some raise in the body like the 'fellow servant' but others not?  Doesn't that seem to put alot happening when Christ returns when it would just be so natural to have it done automatically upon death of the flesh and not when those who have taken the mark of the beast have to be dealt with and right after that those who are alive and remaining and who is it those who are alive and remaining meet in the air if everyone is out looking for their 'body that needs to be resurrected?.  

I know this is alot of questions and you don't have to answer a single one.  I am just hoping someone can tell me WHERE this belief comes from and what is the purpose of it.  It just seems to be so confusing and chaotic and UN necessary when such a simple solution is just right there.  We go to be with the Lord, He brings us back, those who are alive and remain are changed and meet us in the air.  

And, this maybe isn't the time or place but then again MAYBE,  just maybe it is.  

(I figured it out cause I was thinking this is alot for someone I have not chatted with before but I think you are the first person who has acknowledged there was a CHANGE between the before and after of CHRISTS WORK.  So maybe it is.)  

  

[R. Hartono]

6 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

If they are not in Heaven then where are they? To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. So wherever Jesus is they are. (2 cor 5:8)

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) 

They rested in paradeiso with Daniel, Abraham etc. The place God provided with heavenly blessings.

 

[R. Hartono]

15 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Quite a few people were resurrected right after the vail in the temple was torn. 

(Matthew 27: 51,52,53) At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Apostles did not write abt Daniel taken with Lord Jesus to heaven n Gabriel did not lie abt his inheritance in the end of days.

Edited February 21, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Starise]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I know this is alot of questions and you don't have to answer a single one.  I am just hoping someone can tell me WHERE this belief comes from and what is the purpose of it.

If I understood correctly what you said, You don't understand why there is a teaching out there that says we die, our physical bodies are laid in the ground, our souls go to be with god (no rest or sleep involved) . When Christ returns the dead are raised first as stated in 2 Thess. some kind of a metamorphosis takes place where that pile of bones is raised and rebuilt while those souls with Christ immediately are rejoined with those bodies again only in an improved eternal state. IF this is what you are saying I would answer with-

It's the only thing that makes sense to some people so they go with it even though I am not convinced it has the strong support of the Bible. When certain learned men sat down to discuss the curriculum for the seminaries they were charged to teach in, they felt compelled to have an ANSWER. This is the answer that seems to fit best for them.

One of the items of interest in this explanation for me personally is, why didn't the Bible simply say the dead bodies are dead and the souls are with the Lord immediately in glory? Why are the words SLEEP and REST used as it pertains to deceased saints? They could had said it so many different ways that would not have implied what those words mean. It's almost as if someone was trying to muck things up.

[suzan344]

When I read Ephesians 4:8 regarding what Jesus did after his resurrection, quote:

Berean Study Bible
This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

Cont.

I see a variety of interpretations of this verse's meaning.

I can see he led people's spirits out of Shoel, for example.  I believe the 'many gifts' references 'souls' as I feel that Jesus was the very first living soul on earth and it is only because of him, we have souls today.

 

Hosea 13:14 ESV

"Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes."

Conclusion

Where did he take these human spirits (as I believe the prophets of the old testament had none)?  To Heaven and to the Tree of Life.  Only souls go to new earth and the prophets of old had none.  The saints resurrecting in Rev. 20:4 are those that followed after Jesus's time.

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

If I understood correctly what you said, You don't understand why there is a teaching out there that says we die, our physical bodies are laid in the ground, our souls go to be with god (no rest or sleep involved) . When Christ returns the dead are raised first as stated in 2 Thess. some kind of a metamorphosis takes place where that pile of bones is raised and rebuilt while those souls with Christ immediately are rejoined with those bodies again only in an improved eternal state. IF this is what you are saying I would answer with-

It's the only thing that makes sense to some people so they go with it even though I am not convinced it has the strong support of the Bible. When certain learned men sat down to discuss the curriculum for the seminaries they were charged to teach in, they felt compelled to have an ANSWER. This is the answer that seems to fit best for them.

One of the items of interest in this explanation for me personally is, why didn't the Bible simply say the dead bodies are dead and the souls are with the Lord immediately in glory? Why are the words SLEEP and REST used as it pertains to deceased saints? They could had said it so many different ways that would not have implied what those words mean. It's almost as if someone was trying to muck things up.

Starwise,  I believe that WAS covered in Gen. 2:7 where HE specifically told us the formula for HIS creation / formation of Adam. There are only 2 parts, the earth and the breath of HIS SPIRIT into that formed earth.  This was to be a permanent / immortal creature but because of our disobedience, we lost HIS HOLY SPIRIT. 

Consequently, this is the time when our / HIS HOLY SPIRIT was taken back from us AND we lost our immortality. HE had to remove us from HIS presence and for the next 6,000 years we MUST BE RESTORED WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT SO WE ONCE AGAIN MAY BE WITH HIM.

As God told Adam, "if you eat of this fruit you will surely die". This of course meant we would PHYSICALLY DIE. When our HOLY SPIRIT was lost what remained is everything that is "man" - physical, emotional, reasoning, thinking, etc., but we lost the most important part of HIS creation, HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

Now, when we die physically, as the Scriptures tell us, "... we return to dust" - there is nothing else to deal with.... Also, there are a small mountain of verses that tell us the dead (this physical part of us) knows nothing, there is no more love, awareness, pain, c0old, anything under the sun..... we are simply termed to be "as sleep".

The ONLY way we are able to return into HIS PRESENCE is for HIM establish HIS PLAN OF SALVATION. This means HE will provide us with the ability (once again, AS WITH ADAM, HE will give us the choice to obey HIM AND BRING IN / ACCEPT THE HOLY SPIRIT into our life. Without our receiving HIS HOLY SPIRIT that was given to man at Pentecost, our sins can not be removed / forgiven. At the resurrection, HE will see us in only one of two ways - with or without HIS HOLY SPIRIT - NO MORE SECOND CHANCES and just like in the Garden, if we have HIS HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US, we can be in HIS PRESENCE. If not, just as in the Garden, we will not be able to be in HIS PRESENCE AND HIS GLORY AND HOLINESS WILL BE LIKE A BURNING FIRE AND WILL DESTROY US. 

Just my opinion, Charlie

FULL CIRCLE!!!!!

Edited February 21, 2021 by Charlie744
Added full circle

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

If I understood correctly what you said, You don't understand why there is a teaching out there that says we die, our physical bodies are laid in the ground, our souls go to be with god (no rest or sleep involved) . When Christ returns the dead are raised first as stated in 2 Thess. some kind of a metamorphosis takes place where that pile of bones is raised and rebuilt while those souls with Christ immediately are rejoined with those bodies again only in an improved eternal state. IF this is what you are saying I would answer with-

It's the only thing that makes sense to some people so they go with it even though I am not convinced it has the strong support of the Bible. When certain learned men sat down to discuss the curriculum for the seminaries they were charged to teach in, they felt compelled to have an ANSWER. This is the answer that seems to fit best for them.

One of the items of interest in this explanation for me personally is, why didn't the Bible simply say the dead bodies are dead and the souls are with the Lord immediately in glory? Why are the words SLEEP and REST used as it pertains to deceased saints? They could had said it so many different ways that would not have implied what those words mean. It's almost as if someone was trying to muck things up.

THANK YOU for some sort of explanation I can follow.

I am one who believes that though our flesh may die, we do not. "we pass from death unto life" and that transformation is a physical to spiritual one.  The resurrecting of our spirit and spiritual body RETURNING TO THE ONE WHO GAVE IT.    

That means that I believe that when God says " There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" that ACTUALLY means just what is written
1. a natural/earthly/terrestrial/corruptible/flesh body      AND
2. a supernatural/heavenly/celestial/incorruptible/spiritual body.   AND

the LIFE OF ONE COMES AT THE DEATH OF THE OTHER.  that IS THE RESURRECTION UNTO LIFE THAT CHRIST MADE POSSIBLE FOR US.  That is the passing from death into life.  

Both of them are A PART of us right now.  And the shedding/death of that flesh body is the proverbial TRUMPET SOUND for OUR SPIRIT BODY TO RAISE UP AND  TAKE OVER when our flesh left off.  Now, in that body OUR SPIRIT/SOUL/INTELLECT goes  to meet the Lord, who will come for us. 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

in the Fathers house with the many mansions, where He has gone to prepare a place for us, CERTAINLY  not needed for 'bodyless' spirits is there?

JESUS IS COMING TO meet us to take us TO THAT MANSION WITH MANY ROOMS AND WHERE WE WILL NO LONGER BE LABORING IN THIS FLESH BODY WARING CONSTANTLY AGAINST THE SINFUL nature of it, with its lusts and desires AND WE CAN FINALLY REST, THAT WAR ended, our work in the flesh done, having come to our last day walking through the valley of the shadow of death.  The last day of this life in the flesh.  

JUST AS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, SO ARE WE. Christ could not be raised from the dead if the dead were not raised also.  

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Isn't that EXACTLY what is being said when it is said "NOT TILL THAT LAST (Lords?) DAY"

IF no one is RAISED till Christ returns THEN THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD RIGHT NOW, IS THERE?  

and IF THAT WERE TRUE THEN CHRIST WOULD NOT BE RAISED TILL THAT LAST DAY, AND WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
PURE AND SIMPLE


Our spirit BODY TAKING OVER AND WE RETURNING TO GOD IS THE RESURRECTION  THAT HAPPENS BECAUSE OF the WORK that Christ performed/ACCOMPLISHED and it happens RIGHT THEN.   

CHRIST DEFEATED DEATH.  AS for the grave, it takes the dead/decaying/never going to be seen or used or raised/know nothing ever again carcass/going back to the dust of the earth flesh,
BUT IT HAS NO CONTROL OVER THE SPIRITUAL BODY THAT WE RAISE UP IN. 


 WE ARE TOLD AGAIN

1Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ:
WHOM HE RAISED NOT UP, 
IF SO BE THAT THE DEAD RISE NOT.  


Not later, not at a certain time, not all together, but AS SOON AS THE FLESH DIES.  
AND it is said again, 1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
Remind you of 2 Thess when we are told 3 times in a row that Christ doesn't return until after Satan?

I sometimes wonder if it is simply just to SIMPLE.  


And what does this say?  The FIRST FRUITS OF WHOM?
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

OF THEM THAT SLEPT.
NOT OF THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO SLEEP BUT OF THEM WHO ALREADY HAD.  THEY ARE NOW RISEN ALSO


But every man in his own order, Christ the first fruits.   
COMPLETE THAT THOUGHT BEFORE YOU ADD THIS NEXT ONE CAUSE THERE IS LOTS GOING TO SLEEP BEFORE HE RETURNS AND EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER

 
afterward they that are Christ's, 
iN THEIR OWN ORDER THEN, AFTERWORDS AT HIS COMING
Remember the alive and remaining...




Think about GODS PLAN.  Heres a question, where are 'all the host of them' presently?  We know they are not all dead.  We know they are not all here.  We know where they return to.  So where are they?  Is it SO SIMPLE that it is hard to understand?  

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

NOW  Think about  JACOBS LADDER again.  THE DREAM.  

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

CAN YOU PUT THOSE TWO THINGS INTO one PERSPECTIVE? 

So,
the spiritual body does not come to life/is not quickened/is not set free
until the natural earthy flesh body dies.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. 
 

[Marilyn C]

On 2/4/2021 at 4:14 PM, R. Hartono said:

 

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension,.......

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

 

Hi R. Hartono,

Have you considered these scriptures -

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

There we read of - the church of the first-born and the spirits of just men, who are the OT saints. These two groups are awaiting their inheritances. The Body of Christ, the church of the first-born will receive their inheritance first.

For - `God will bring with Him, (Christ) those who sleep in Jesus..` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

There we see that the Lord will bring with Him those who sleep in Him, and they will go into the earth and then be resurrected in their new bodies. Then they rise to meet the Lord in the air with those who are still alive, and are caught away. Together they all go to the Lord`s own throne, to rule and reign with Him. (Rev. 3: 21)

Those in the grave (John 5: 28) are those who will go to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the world before the NH & NE.

 

regards, Marilyn.