The saints (wise virgins) shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet.

[R. Hartono]

46 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

That is logical but that is not what the parable says.  It clearly says that the tares are gathered out and burned first.

Do u think u will remain safe on earth while God punishment destroy billions of life ? 

Luke 21:34 Do not let the day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want you to be caught unaware like the whole world because theres no safe haven on earth in the great tribulation.

Edited March 20, 2021 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 2/25/2021 at 11:06 PM, Diaste said:

It doesn't mean that at all. Jesus coming is in the clouds of the air. Where we are gathered to meet Him.

Sorry bro, pretrib fails. 

Are u saying that after Jesus gather the saints to the cloud He will then make a U-Turn to return them to earth ?

Luke 21:34 Do not let that Day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want us to be left behind unaware when He gather the saints to the cloud.

Edited March 20, 2021 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 2/25/2021 at 9:32 PM, DeighAnn said:

WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN?

 

On 2/25/2021 at 11:03 PM, Diaste said:

No where. That's where.

This is the trumpet of Rapture.

Matt 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect.

Edited March 20, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

I agree that this is about the end.  Does it not say that the harvest is the end of the world?

Shalom, seeking the lost.

Y'know, it's always good to talk to someone different now and then! Thank you for the diversion!

Well, technically, the "world" there is not the Greek word "kosmos" (which means the "world system" of government) but the Greek word "aioonos," which means an "age." Thus, the harvest is "the end of the age," specifically, the end of the last 1,000 years of the current age.

There are three ages which Kefa ("Peter") tells us about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. The age before the Flood, the age after the Flood and before the Fire, and the age to come after the Fire.

2 Peter 3:1-18 (KJV)

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the first age)

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (the second age) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (the Fire) against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the GWTJ).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (the Fire described)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (the third age).

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation (deliverance; rescue); even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (twist), as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever (Greek: kai nun kai eis heemeran aioonos = "and/also now and/also into [the]-day of [the]-age"). Amen.

That is, Kefa is saying "To Yeshua` the Messiah be glory both now and into (the 1,000-year) day of the (current) age." This is the same 1,000-year day as Yochanan ("John") spoke about in Revelation 20:1-7, called the "Millennium" (from "mille" for "one thousand" and "annum" for "year" in Latin, "Chilia Etee" in Greek), the first 1,000 years of Yeshua`s Kingdom.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (Jesus)

PLEASE, Read it to 100 people who don't know the point you are trying to make,  and you will see yourself what a stretch that is.  

Don't be ignorant about those who have died, don't be sad like those who don't know the Lord,  because we do, SO WE know that Jesus died and rose  AND (WHAT IS THE SUBJECT?  WHO IS PAUL TALKING ABOUT) THOSE who have died ALSO called 'sleep'  (Remember Lazarus, What did Jesus say?)   HE

WILL BRING WITH 

 NOT go forth alone, to hook up with somewhere else 


 If I bring you to the store with me, I am not meeting you there.  

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"we ... shall not in any way precede") them which are asleep. 

Know why?  Because they have ALREADY GONE.  SO the alive and remaining can't.  They are coming back.  We will meet them once they TOO have their spiritual bodies.  



 

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

(not 'spirits' but whole children, people, beings  Body soul spirit)  

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;

Ephesians 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

He already purchased me, and the second I am free of this flesh I am a running towards Him as He comes to meet me to take me to the place he prepared for us, so that I can be with Him, and He will be bringing me back with Him.  





 

Revelation 19:13 And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
 

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven FOLLOWED HIM upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You do realize that God uses Laws, correct?  Either the dead rise or they don't.  If the dead don't rise, then Christ hasn't EITHER.  

There are two different kinds of resurrection: The resurrection that gave life to an individual, giving him or her a brief reprieve before he or she would have to die again, and the resurrection like that of Yeshua` who would be CHANGED into an immortal body, never to die again! I am not saying that the dead don't rise. I'm just saying that they don't rise on YOUR time table. The justified ones will collectively rise at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, not individually at the end of each one's life!

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Again, the flesh CARCASS goes into the ground.  The flesh carcass decays and goes back to dust, from which it came.  It has no spirit, no soul, no life, no memory, it knows nothing, never will, it has served it purpose, and WE go back to God.  

Could it have been explained any clearer than here?
 

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

You're misreading Luke 16! This is not during the gap between death and the Second Coming of our Lord; this is AFTER the Millennium which in turn is AFTER the Second Coming of our Lord! This is immediately after the RESURRECTION of the UNJUST! And, it is DIRECTLY related to the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

Next, I said, "The contextual clues say that this was when YAH God led the children of Israel out of Egypt! THAT'S when He 'led captivity captive!'"

You said,

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So you can see it there,  but no where else?  

THIS is what Paul quoted! Why would he quote from one passage to mean something else? That was NOT Paul's style! No, if he made a quote from the Tanakh (the OT), he would have used its meaning in that passage to mean the same thing in what he was adding to the quote. He didn't say there was another time that YAH God "led captivity captive!"

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

No,

Because  what GOD tells us about HIMSELF 

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
 

But, you're FAILING to read Yeshua`s words in context, effectively MISREPRESENTING what YESHUA` HIMSELF said! Here's the context:

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, WHICH SAY THERE IS NO RESURRECTION; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For WHEN THEY SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And AS TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

He's not saying that they were CURRENTLY alive somewhere; He was saying that IN THE RESURRECTION, God is the God of the LIVING; that is, He is the God of the RESURRECTED!

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BUT THIS IS WHILE WE ARE ALIVE, IN THE DEAD FLESH BEFORE FAITH

LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD, would be spoken of one who had not been SAVED.  

But once SAVED, it would have to read "let the LIVE bury the dead."  

Do you think there is only ONE kind of resurrection?  

Read on with what you quoted 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 


You do realize that we BOTH believe we go to heaven, you just don't think it is with a body

(But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body)


You go to heaven in a mist, I go to heaven in a body. 
You are all 'thought?'  I am body and soul and spirit.

I return with God as one in His army, you are brought back as a mist and go find your decaying flesh to have God 'make' it new again?  IDK. 

You probably don't realize it (or care), but you're misrepresenting what I believe.

No, I DON'T believe "we go to heaven" AT ALL! We stay in the ground and "sleep!" We decay and slowly go back to dust, but GOD can make us new again, no matter in WHAT state we are found! As I've said before, God is the Creator God who can re-create us as we were before death, only as immortal bodies that will never die again! We're not a "mist" after death, a "spirit," or even a "spiritual body!" We are DEAD!

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What about those who were blown to bits in space?  Or vaporized.  Or cremated?  or eaten by animals.  Or died 6000 years ago and became part of the soil that raised up a stalk of corn that was eaten by a pregnant woman, WHO would get to claim that 'body'?  

OUR GOD YAH is the GOD OF CREATION! What difference does it make if He finds us as dust or a pile of ash? OUR GOD CAN AND WILL RE-CREATE US!

You're of the same caliber as the Sadducees were! You, too, believe that there is no resurrection OF THE FLESH! HOWEVER, that's TOTALLY AGAINST what God has said! That's TOTALLY AGAINST what others have believed!

Iyov ("Job") said,

Job 19:23-27 (KJV)

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that MY REDEEMER LIVETH, and that HE SHALL STAND AT THE LATTER DAY UPON THE EARTH:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD:
27 WHOM I SHALL SEE FOR MYSELF, and MINE EYES SHALL BEHOLD, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

DOESN'T it all seem so far fetched and COMPLICATED compared with we have 2 bodies, one for heaven and one for earth and when you leave the flesh behind it isn't as a mist but as a 'being' LIKE an angel.  WOulDn't that REALLY make 

Make what? "make more sense?" No, not at all! Having 2 bodies at one time is what sounds ridiculous. Most of us don't treat one body well, not exercising or eating properly, and you would have us abuse TWO bodies?!

No, the two bodies that Paul spoke about in 1 Corinthians 15 are SEQUENTIAL, not simultaneous! Furthermore, they don't even have to be contiguous, adjacent in sequence! In fact, for most people, they WON'T be! We're first an air-breathing body - a "soul" - and then we die, ceasing to breathe, ceasing to be a "soul," waiting in the ground, as though in "sleep," waiting for the Resurrection at the Second Coming of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
 

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

This is nothing. Genesis 28:12 said "HE DREAMED!" John 1:51 said that Nathanael would see the sky open, and see the messengers of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. So? So what? They're not the same thing! Even if it were an analogy (which it isn't), Yeshua` - the Son of man - would be likened to the LAND whereon Ya`aqov lay!

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

This is the trumpet of Rapture.

Matt 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect.

Correct. The one and only and the same as the 7th trump of Revelation.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are u saying that after Jesus gather the saints to the cloud He will then make a U-Turn to return them to earth ?

Luke 21:34 Do not let that Day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want us to be left behind unaware when He gather the saints to the cloud.

I think the u-turn idea is device used to criticize another position. It's an example of a logical fallacy where an opposing argument it extrapolated to unintended lengths and the result disparaged. 

I know of no one in the world advancing such an argument as primary evidence of rapture timing, or even using it as evidence at all.

It looks like it's based on the idea the saints are the armies that return with Jesus. The hagios are not the strateuma. So the whole concept falls flat.

[Brother Duke]

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are u saying that after Jesus gather the saints to the cloud He will then make a U-Turn to return them to earth ?

Luke 21:34 Do not let that Day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want us to be left behind unaware when He gather the saints to the cloud.

How long are we with Christ in the clouds before he returns? Perhaps we wait for a few before returning but just the same the Bible says we end up back on Earth with God and Christ in New Jerusalem.

[seeking the lost]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Do u think u will remain safe on earth while God punishment destroy billions of life ? 

Luke 21:34 Do not let the day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want you to be caught unaware like the whole world because theres no safe haven on earth in the great tribulation.

Do you not believe that God is able to distinguish the difference between those that are His and those who are not?  Revelation 9:4 (KJV)
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

When all of the trouble begins as stated here believers on the earth will have been sealed with the seal of God.  This will be the safe place and they will not be harmed by those that are sent forth.  God is our safety.