The saints (wise virgins) shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

"These are they which came OUT of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The word "heaven" isn't even in the text, neither in the KJV or in the Greek!

Most of the church world believes "His temple" and "the throne of God" is speaking of heaven. God did not need to include the word "heaven" for that is to be understood. 

As for "OUT of great tribulation," several commentators believe this is speaking of the entire church age. I agree with them. It is not speaking of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the last half of the weeek where "those days" of "great tribulation" will take place.

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

No need to feel sorry, our faith of Salvation is based on Jesus resurrection not on Eschatology understanding.

And didnt you see those 144000 are the tribes of the children of Israel (the Hebrew) where we dont belong. Because christians as spiritual Jews do not belong to any tribe.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Sure we do! We belong to the tribe that gave birth to the Messiah Yeshua`! We belong to the tribe of Yhudah! THAT'S how we can call ourselves "Jews!"

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

A "Jew" is not just a child of Israel from any tribe; a "Jew" is a child of Yhudah (or "Judah")! In Hebrew, a "Jew" is a "Yhudiy." In German, a "Jew" is a "Jude," pronounced "Yoo'-deh!" Remember the yellow "Star of David" symbols that the Germans made the Jews wear back in WWII?

 

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/20/2021 at 8:35 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They..."

So the they are the souls of the beheaded.

Hey Diaste, 

I think you misunderstood me.  I asked, "where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?"

 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Most of the church world believes "His temple" and "the throne of God" is speaking of heaven. God did not need to include the word "heaven" for that is to be understood. 

As for "OUT of great tribulation," several commentators believe this is speaking of the entire church age. I agree with them. It is not speaking of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the last half of the weeek where "those days" of "great tribulation" will take place.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Then, most of the church world would be wrong. "Heaven" simply means the "sky," most of the time, because the Greek word "ouranos" that is translated as "heaven" means the "sky!"

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from HEAVEN. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the SKY is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the SKY is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the SKY; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

The word "ouranos" (or one of its forms) is found FOUR times in this passage! ONLY ONCE was it translated as "heaven" in verse 1. When Yeshua` used the word, recorded in verses 2 and 3, He used it for the "sky," because that's what it is!

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); THE SKY; by extension, heaven (as "the abode of God"); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- AIR, heaven(-ly), SKY.

[Retrobyter]

 

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste, 

I think you misunderstood me.  I asked, "where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?"

 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...

Shalom, not an echo.

If you don't mind me throwing in my two cents' worth, I believe the antecedent goes back to Revelation 19:19 "his army," which restates Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

That these armies were "clothed in fine linen, white and clean," seems to me to be a reference to verse 8:

Revelation 19:6-8 (KJV)

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "Hallelujah"): for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth!"

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[not an echo]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste, 

I think you misunderstood me.  I asked, "where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?"

 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...

Shalom, not an echo.

If you don't mind me throwing in my two cents' worth, I believe the antecedent goes back to Revelation 19:19 "his army," which restates Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

That these armies were "clothed in fine linen, white and clean," seems to me to be a reference to verse 8:

Revelation 19:6-8 (KJV)

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "Hallelujah"): for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth!"

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

That's a thumb's up  Retrobyter!  And, that's just one note in the tune of the song the Father has given me to sing on Worthy Christian Forums! 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste, 

I think you misunderstood me.  I asked, "where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?"

 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...

That's interesting. I do believe I erred here. Apologies. 

Since this;

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" - Rev 20,

is all we have in this part of the text we will have to look elsewhere.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" - Rev 3

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. " - Rev 3

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." - Rev 2

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? " - 1 Cor 6

"until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom." - Dan 7

The overcomers sit on the thrones; the saints of the Most High possess the kingdom and rule the nations, judging the world and the angels.

I don't think my initial answer was wrong as it's obvious those "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years", which suggests a throne, but this doesn't, and did not, answer the question you asked.

 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Then, most of the church world would be wrong. "Heaven" simply means the "sky," most of the time, because the Greek word "ouranos" that is translated as "heaven" means the "sky!"

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from HEAVEN. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the SKY is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the SKY is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the SKY; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

The word "ouranos" (or one of its forms) is found FOUR times in this passage! ONLY ONCE was it translated as "heaven" in verse 1. When Yeshua` used the word, recorded in verses 2 and 3, He used it for the "sky," because that's what it is!

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); THE SKY; by extension, heaven (as "the abode of God"); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- AIR, heaven(-ly), SKY.

I could say what they said to Paul, that much learning has....but I won't. The real question is, what did God intend when we read "heaven?"

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  Yes, God could have caused his voice to seem to come from a cloud, but did He? Or did he speak from His throne and it seemed to come from the air?

Matthew 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Is our reward to be in the sky? Not hardly! It will be where Jesus will be, in His home where there are many homes - and where we will soon be.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Is the Father's throne in the air, sitting on a cloud? Not hardly. It is on a planet somewhere in the universe. For sure it is outside our solar system. 

Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:  Is God's throne a real thing in a real place? Or is it only figments of imagination? Enough people have been there and seen it to KNOW it is real and in a certainly place in a huge palace on a planet. 

Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:...Same answer

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Same answer

Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.  Same answer.

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.  Same answer

Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Is God's will being accomplished in the air? NO! Satan is the prince of the air and he never does God's will. On the other hand, His will is ALWAYS accomplished on His planet. 

Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:  Is our reward floating in ether so to speak, as only imagination - or are our rewards where God dwells - on a throne, in a throne room, in a huge palace, on His heavenly planet?

Note: I only got to chapter 6 in Matthew! I could have finished Matthew and the other gospel with hundreds of such verses. 

Summary: if you wish to spend eternity in the air on a cloud, perhaps God can arrange that.  Or did I completely misunderstand your post?

[not an echo]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste, 

I think you misunderstood me.  I asked, "where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?"

 4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them...

That's interesting. I do believe I erred here. Apologies. 

Since this;

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" - Rev 20,

is all we have in this part of the text we will have to look elsewhere.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" - Rev 3

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. " - Rev 3

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." - Rev 2

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? " - 1 Cor 6

"until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom." - Dan 7

The overcomers sit on the thrones; the saints of the Most High possess the kingdom and rule the nations, judging the world and the angels.

I don't think my initial answer was wrong as it's obvious those "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years", which suggests a throne, but this doesn't, and did not, answer the question you asked.

Hello Diaste,

Not sure, but it seems that you may be suggesting that it is ONLY those John spoke of "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;" that "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20:4).  Forgive me if what I'm hearing you say misrepresents what you put forth.

My point concerning the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 is that these are those who make up "the armies" of 19:14, which "followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."  It is these who John is speaking of first, in 20:4, when he writes, "And I saw thrones, and THEY sat upon them, and judgment was given unto THEM:"

Then, he continues, "AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;"

Then, he continues, "and THEY (BOTH the first "they" AND those who had not leagued with the beast) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Sooo, what am I even getting at???  IMHO, "the armies which were in Heaven" that John says "followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev. 19:14) are none other than all the resurrection saints and those raptured with the opening of the 6th Seal (the "great multitude, which no man could number..." Rev. 7:9-17).  ALL of these, with the Daniel's 70th Week martyrs, yea, ALL of God's children (Jew and Gentile alike) from the beginning of time up till that time (the time of Christ's Millennial Reign) will rule and reign with Jesus Christ.  "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION" (Rev. 20:5).  And, as John writes next in Revelation 20:

 6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:  on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

NOTE:  For R. Hartono---I promise that this is as far as I will go concerning this subject on your thread.  It deserves a thread all it's own.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by not an echo
NOTE: For R. Hartono

[seeking the lost]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:21 PM, R. Hartono said:

The 144000 n the 2 Witness of Revelation  are literal Hebrew who replaced the church in great tribulation as the church wise  virgins are alrdy raptured to heaven as the great multitude of Revelation 7.

Notice the words of the scripture that refer to this number.  

Revelation 7:13 (NIV)

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

Revelation 7:14 (NIV)

I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They did not come out before the great tribulation.  These came out of the great tribulation.  I believe that these are martyrs.

There is nothing in the parable that indicates the virgins have been raptured for only a door separates the wise from the foolish.  The foolish were just on the wrong side.