Cooperation , compromise and submission. When Government demands and the will of God diverg.

[Riverwalker]

The bible tells us  to be subject to earthly authority

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.

and  

1 Peter 2:13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for 4vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

And yet we know that when the earthly authority (both the Pharisees and Rome) demanded that Christ not be preached, they quite rebelled against those orders and if cost many of them their lives.

So where is the line drawn when State tells you one thing and God tells you another

Lets take an example from today's world.

God tells us that we need to be together fellowshipping and learning 

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

A year ago now, the government (here in California and many places) the government closed churches. We were told it was for two weeks to help flatten curve. And yet a year later they are still punishing churches if they deign to hold indoor services. 

I will not discuss the nefarious nature of this on this post (I'll put it on a later post ) I just want to know when we part ways with the government and when we do....what do we do? Certainly not riot and destroy things, but how does a Christian stand up and say I will go this far, and no further?

Edited February 28, 2021 by Riverwalker

[teddyv]

I guess it depends how you read that Hebrews passage. Is it a command? It seems more of a reminder for those who were getting distracted by the world. I'm not a Greek reader so there may be nuance I am not aware of.

I don't think any of us don't want to go to a physical church and gather with each other. I certainly look forward to that. But services can and are till happening. Is physical proximity a right?

For now, our own church is remaining closed to adhere to provincial health orders and not to be a source of transmission. For our family at least we do not believe that our religious rights have been infringed. 

 

 

 

[Whyme]

48 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

The bible tells us  to be subject to earthly authority

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.

and  

1 Peter 2:13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for 4vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

And yet we know that when the earthly authority (both the Pharisees and Rome) demanded that Christ not be preached, they quite rebelled against those orders and if cost many of them their lives.

So where is the line drawn when State tells you one thing and God tells you another

Lets take an example from today's world.

God tells us that we need to be together fellowshipping and learning 

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

A year ago now, the government (here in California and many places) the government closed churches. We were told it was for two weeks to help flatten curve. And yet a year later they are still punishing churches if they deign to hold indoor services. 

I will not discuss the nefarious nature of this on this post (I'll put it on a later post ) I just want to know when we part ways with the government and when we do....what do we do? Certainly not riot and destroy things, but how does a Christian stand up and say I will go this far, and no further?

Jesus preached the truth but submitted to authority. Preach the word whether in season or not. 

[walla299]

There have been cases in the nation's history when churches or anywhere else people gathered in large groups were shut down due to epidemics of various kinds. Our ancestors figured out that doing that helped to slow the epidemic even before they knew what germs were. Its worked in the past and it will work in our day.

There are some differences in the case of the covid lock downs. Where I have a problem with the government shuttering churches is when other places of mass gathering are allowed to remain open. An example is when the government starts saying you can go to the casino but not to church. Really? The crowds are bigger at the casinos so why aren't those being shutdown to "bend the curve" and "stop the spread?" Churches seemed to have been targeted in some area which more strict requirement than other facilities. This is wrong. If you're going to lock down churches, then everything else better be locked down too.

Most of the churches in my area responded to the authorities in a positive fashion. Some stopped services completely for a time or went virtual with the at first because Covid was so new no one was sure what it might do. Others did the mask/distance thing and added services to accommodate that, for example going from 2 to 3 services to make the crowd smaller. This is what our church did, and we met every Sunday just like always. Everyone was a responsible adult about the whole thing, and I'm grateful we haven't had any hassles with the authorities.

 

[teddyv]

1 minute ago, walla299 said:

There have been cases in the nation's history when churches or anywhere else people gathered in large groups were shut down due to epidemics of various kinds. Our ancestors figured out that doing that helped to slow the epidemic even before they knew what germs were. Its worked in the past and it will work in our day.

There are some differences in the case of the covid lock downs. Where I have a problem with the government shuttering churches is when other places of mass gathering are allowed to remain open. An example is when the government starts saying you can go to the casino but not to church. Really? The crowds are bigger at the casinos so why aren't those being shutdown to "bend the curve" and "stop the spread?" Churches seemed to have been targeted in some area which more strict requirement than other facilities. This is wrong. If you're going to lock down churches, then everything else better be locked down too.

Most of the churches in my area responded to the authorities in a positive fashion. Some stopped services completely for a time or went virtual with the at first because Covid was so new no one was sure what it might do. Others did the mask/distance thing and added services to accommodate that, for example going from 2 to 3 services to make the crowd smaller. This is what our church did, and we met every Sunday just like always. Everyone was a responsible adult about the whole thing, and I'm grateful we haven't had any hassles with the authorities.

 

I agree that the playing field is not level and that is most likely because of economic decisions.

[Whyme]

22 minutes ago, teddyv said:

I guess it depends how you read that Hebrews passage. Is it a command? It seems more of a reminder for those who were getting distracted by the world. I'm not a Greek reader so there may be nuance I am not aware of.

I don't think any of us don't want to go to a physical church and gather with each other. I certainly look forward to that. But services can and are till happening. Is physical proximity a right?

For now, our own church is remaining closed to adhere to provincial health orders and not to be a source of transmission. For our family at least we do not believe that our religious rights have been infringed. 

 

 

 

People can gather in huge numbers to riot, loot and burn peoples property but we can't attend church in peace.. Somethings not right because we have a constitutional right to freedom of religion but rioting, stealing and arson are against the law. Woe to them who call evil good and good evil. 

[Dennis1209]

45 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

The bible tells us  to be subject to earthly authority

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.

and  

1 Peter 2:13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for 4vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

And yet we know that when the earthly authority (both the Pharisees and Rome) demanded that Christ not be preached, they quite rebelled against those orders and if cost many of them their lives.

So where is the line drawn when State tells you one thing and God tells you another

Lets take an example from today's world.

God tells us that we need to be together fellowshipping and learning 

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

A year ago now, the government (here in California and many places) the government closed churches. We were told it was for two weeks to help flatten curve. And yet a year later they are still punishing churches if they deign to hold indoor services. 

I will not discuss the nefarious nature of this on this post (I'll put it on a later post ) I just want to know when we part ways with the government and when we do....what do we do? Certainly not riot and destroy things, but how does a Christian stand up and say I will go this far, and no further?

Matthew 22:21 (KJV) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.    

Where's the separation of church and state they are so fond of invoking? We have three founding legal documents that cannot be superseded; The Constitution of the United States of America, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. If it violates them, it's not law. 

Our church doors are open but our attendance is way down, due to natural concerns of catching the virus [most of us are elderly]. As far as I know, no laws have been established prohibiting assemblies, only tyrant directives, decrees, executive orders, policies and restraining ordinances. 

If people haven't understood yet, this isn't about health and safety, it's about controlling the sheep and bending them to the will of their masters. Everything about this perceived crisis is exponentially blown out of proportion. Die in a car wreck and it's reported you died of Covid when they test the corpse. 

[Dennis1209]

8 minutes ago, walla299 said:

There have been cases in the nation's history when churches or anywhere else people gathered in large groups were shut down due to epidemics of various kinds. Our ancestors figured out that doing that helped to slow the epidemic even before they knew what germs were. Its worked in the past and it will work in our day.

There are some differences in the case of the covid lock downs. Where I have a problem with the government shuttering churches is when other places of mass gathering are allowed to remain open. An example is when the government starts saying you can go to the casino but not to church. Really? The crowds are bigger at the casinos so why aren't those being shutdown to "bend the curve" and "stop the spread?" Churches seemed to have been targeted in some area which more strict requirement than other facilities. This is wrong. If you're going to lock down churches, then everything else better be locked down too.

Most of the churches in my area responded to the authorities in a positive fashion. Some stopped services completely for a time or went virtual with the at first because Covid was so new no one was sure what it might do. Others did the mask/distance thing and added services to accommodate that, for example going from 2 to 3 services to make the crowd smaller. This is what our church did, and we met every Sunday just like always. Everyone was a responsible adult about the whole thing, and I'm grateful we haven't had any hassles with the authorities.

 

Many places casinos, tobacco and liquor stores, taverns were essential services and kept open. Churches non-essential and had to close. 

[OneLight]

Our guide should be scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit.  We don't have to stand on the roof tops shouting our disagreements, just do as God leads in peace.  Just don't do what is against His will.

[teddyv]

10 minutes ago, Whyme said:

People can gather in huge numbers to riot, loot and burn peoples property but we can't attend church in peace.. Somethings not right because we have a constitutional right to freedom of religion but rioting, stealing and arson are against the law. Woe to them who call evil good and good evil. 

That's kind of a red herring.