HEBREWS 6:1-2

[Your closest friendnt]

1 minute ago, SONshine said:

Don’t worry;  I’m not worrying too much.  

Your statement says otherwise. 

[Your closest friendnt]

Just now, SONshine said:

Truly, the answer just came to me while I was outside playing with my dog.  No worries, okay? 

OK, Enjoy your time . God bless

[DeighAnn]

I believe we are being told to put in proper place the principle doctrines and MOVE PAST THEM, and it is when we get past them, and deeper into Gods Word is when 'perfection' comes upon us.  


Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


But we miss part of what is being told
by not backing up to

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


If we look around these forums, anything that is NOT of the principles of Christ, knowledge that leads us unto perfection, quickly gets shut down by those who are babes or kenites, because they won't open up to new things, instead holding so close what they believe is Gods only and final truth, it becomes impossible to learn anything new.  Where do we find them that are of full age to discuss the meat?  Satan has us debating back and forth on the basics, never letting us move on.  How many times have we heard 'this is what has always been taught' never taking into consideration the synagogue of Satan, the mystery of iniquity, that has been hard at work trying to keep us in ignorance is succeeding?   God told us there would always be a remnant that carried His truth.  WHAT does that say about 'main stream' teachings?  It should give one pause.  God also tells us in the last days knowledge would be increased.  How many only see that as knowledge of evil?  never considering that for the evil there is a good also.  What was the last 'NEW' teaching you searched out that turned out to be truth?  

What is known today about the synagogue of Satan?  Who they are, how they work, where they are working, when it started etc.  How is that possible?  Pages and pages of threads covering the principles, almost nothing covering what comes after that.  How are we to discern both good and evil,  if 'evil' is never to be spoken of?  Where do we go to have a discussion that is not immediately mocked by those ignorant of the meat of Gods Word? or the kenites who twist whatever is put forth back to the basic principles?  

Can we understand the end if we do not understand the beginning?  Can we truly learn Gods Truth if we do not study His Word as He instructed?  Can we fight against evil if we wont even accept that it is walking among us?  What was it about Esau that God hated?  If you don't know,  then how do you know whether or not you are the same as he was?  Stop.  



 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, SONshine said:

Hi again, Fritz ...
 

Well, I’d have to say “no.”  Perfection is not attainable, not while we are in our flesh bodies.
 

...Yet I’m honestly having a hard time reconciling Mt. 5:48 with other scriptures that clearly tell us that we all fall short—that while in our flesh bodies, we can never be perfect.  For example:

Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

....

Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

If we’re honest, I think this applies to all of us.

This is not to excuse sin, but if we are in a humble position before God, and being in the flesh, and are able to face reality, we know we all fall short and that sin must be repented of in Jesus name.  This is Paul speaking, and even he knew that he fell short; but it was through the Word and Paul's repentance that all of Paul's sins were washed away.

Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

We are in our flesh bodies, in the carnal, and we will continue to sin while in the flesh, but Paul is letting us, the saved of God, know that as we try to live for Christ in the flesh, we still have that old nature with us. This is reality and we must be aware of our condition while in the flesh, so that we can be on guard and try to control that flesh nature that we have.

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not."

Again, this is Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ speaking and saying that there is no good thing in his flesh body and his old flesh nature. "To will is present with me" means that Paul wants to do what is right, but it seems that he just doesn’t have the power within to always do that which is right.

Romans 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

Paul says that even against his own wishes it seems that he continues to sin and fall short.

Romans 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

....

But look at this next verse. 

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Even though we will always have that old sin nature with us, we can be victorious through the blood of Christ, and it is through our faith and trust in Jesus Christ that we can be free from all of our sins. We cannot avoid sinning while in the flesh body because we will always have that old nature with us, but we can have the victory when we confess our sins and repent in Jesus’ precious name.

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

I think we are given these to show that while in the flesh we are at war.  That no matter how hard we try we are going to fail sometimes, and that is known by God.  I think it is so we don't become proud.  I think it is also because it has to span from those  first coming to the Lord to those who have been living in Christ a long time.   

We have all sinned, much of the time in the beginning,  when we didn't even realize there was a spirit inside of us that could take control the lusts of the flesh.  But the more we allow the Spirit to lead and guide us we take that control, the less the flesh has anything to say, and one day what once was an effort has become our normal and what used to rule us doesn't even cross our minds.  YEt,  even as close as we may get, if we turn away the eyes for a second, Satan is waiting to pounce.  I always remember, keep your eyes on the Lord and walking on water is natural, take your eyes from Him and down you go.  

So all those things that in the beginning applied to our everyday walk, are no less Truth today, but they are less applicable to us as we become more like Christ.  Some are moving into those truths, some leaving them because they have exercised them and so 


we may not be able to 'remain' perfect while in the flesh but we do attain it, IMHO, everytime we repent and are forgiven and washed clean, and  we certainly are able to remain in that state for longer and longer periods of time.  And with the blood of Christ, what an awesome GIFT, THANK YOU LORD, we can remain there much longer than not, as it was under the law.    
 

[Frits]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I think we are given these to show that while in the flesh we are at war.  That no matter how hard we try we are going to fail sometimes, and that is known by God.  I think it is so we don't become proud.  I think it is also because it has to span from those  first coming to the Lord to those who have been living in Christ a long time.   

We have all sinned, much of the time in the beginning,  when we didn't even realize there was a spirit inside of us that could take control the lusts of the flesh.  But the more we allow the Spirit to lead and guide us we take that control, the less the flesh has anything to say, and one day what once was an effort has become our normal and what used to rule us doesn't even cross our minds.  YEt,  even as close as we may get, if we turn away the eyes for a second, Satan is waiting to pounce.  I always remember, keep your eyes on the Lord and walking on water is natural, take your eyes from Him and down you go.  

So all those things that in the beginning applied to our everyday walk, are no less Truth today, but they are less applicable to us as we become more like Christ.  Some are moving into those truths, some leaving them because they have exercised them and so 


we may not be able to 'remain' perfect while in the flesh but we do attain it, IMHO, everytime we repent and are forgiven and washed clean, and  we certainly are able to remain in that state for longer and longer periods of time.  And with the blood of Christ, what an awesome GIFT, THANK YOU LORD, we can remain there much longer than not, as it was under the law.    
 

Hi Ann,

I find it very special that the comment from verse 1 about the possibility of perfection (G5047) provides us with so much interesting conversation material.

When I was immersed in water 43 years ago and hands laid on me by the elders of the congregation to receive the Holy Spirit, there was one Bible text that took on special value to me.
These are the words of the Lord Jesus in John 15

John 15:3 KJV
'Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.'

What the Lord Jesus says is always true and I was so grateful to Him for these words that I have been living from this text for 43 years now.
I AM CLEAN.  And you are clean too, hallelujah, praise the Lord!

It's wonderful to read in your comments that this truth is also taking shape in all of you.

What privileged people we are, aren't we, brothers and sisters?  God makes known to us all His plans.

Joh 15:16 KJV Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

May the Lord Jesus bless you.

Frits

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, SONshine said:

Ah!  Could it be that Mt. 5:48 is telling us to be perfect because we can be?—by doing what 1John tells us to do?  ....that when we confess our sins, He makes us righteous again and thus perfect?

Jesus was teaching a crowd of people who were under the Law, and he referred to a principle rule they were living with, which rule taught them to hate their enemies. We do not examine why, but briefly it was because God hated their enemies who seek to oppress them, and their enemies at that time were the Romans. 

Jesus Christ was telling them that the Heavenly Father does not seek to destroy their enemies and that included the Romans. 

The people who listen to Jesus were hating the Romans and looked forwards for God to destroy them.

That left the people puzzled. 

Jesus Christ was telling them that things will be changed that all things will become New. 

And he gave the example in verse 48 that the Heavenly Father is perfect, because he loves his enemies. 

And that they should be perfect like him and learn to love their enemies, but he did not tell them how .

Only he told them that God sends the same rain upon them as the rain he sends upon the righteous. God wants the unrighteous to not go hungry. 

Jesus meant many things, and the time has not come for them to understand. 

..... the disciples later understood what Jesus was telling at that time. 

When Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of sins for all the world and he included everyone even the Romans and those who Crucified him The people who shouted "Crucifie him, crucifie him" and to whom Peter preached the Gospel and told them that God does not wants them to perish but to Save them and in his Love for his one time "enemies ", he wants them to believe and be Saved.

The good news of the Gospel to rain upon all people. 

Mathew 5:43, 

Mayhew 5:43-48 

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

***

Edited March 10, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

18 hours ago, SONshine said:

Hi again, Fritz ...
 

Well, I’d have to say “no.”  Perfection is not attainable, not while we are in our flesh bodies.
 

...Yet I’m honestly having a hard time reconciling Mt. 5:48 with other scriptures that clearly tell us that we all fall short—that while in our flesh bodies, we can never be perfect.  For example:

Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

....

Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

If we’re honest, I think this applies to all of us.

This is not to excuse sin, but if we are in a humble position before God, and being in the flesh, and are able to face reality, we know we all fall short and that sin must be repented of in Jesus name.  This is Paul speaking, and even he knew that he fell short; but it was through the Word and Paul's repentance that all of Paul's sins were washed away.

Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

We are in our flesh bodies, in the carnal, and we will continue to sin while in the flesh, but Paul is letting us, the saved of God, know that as we try to live for Christ in the flesh, we still have that old nature with us. This is reality and we must be aware of our condition while in the flesh, so that we can be on guard and try to control that flesh nature that we have.

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not."

Again, this is Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ speaking and saying that there is no good thing in his flesh body and his old flesh nature. "To will is present with me" means that Paul wants to do what is right, but it seems that he just doesn’t have the power within to always do that which is right.

Romans 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

Paul says that even against his own wishes it seems that he continues to sin and fall short.

Romans 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

....

But look at this next verse. 

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Even though we will always have that old sin nature with us, we can be victorious through the blood of Christ, and it is through our faith and trust in Jesus Christ that we can be free from all of our sins. We cannot avoid sinning while in the flesh body because we will always have that old nature with us, but we can have the victory when we confess our sins and repent in Jesus’ precious name.

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

Hi Sister SONshine,

Thank you for your honest and understandable answer.

Rm.3:22 is no problem for us, it is after all true. Back in our old existence, like all the unbelievers, we were unrighteous sinners!

As for Rm.7:15-25, I think Paul is writing his autobiography here.

Because in verse 5 Paul had already indicated that this existence was a thing of the past.

Verse 5

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

To show his understanding and to show that as a Pharisee he understands exactly how the Jewish people grapple with sin because of the law, he identifies with them and his writing style remains even after verse 6 in the present tense.
This happens more often.
He also names himself with the others in 1Th.4:15. 
While these words apply to a different time, Paul includes himself.

He indicates in several of his letters, it's certainly possible for God to attain His ultimate goal through the Holy Spirit in us:
That we will become Sons of God (this ofcourse also concerns the sisters). We shall have the fullness in Christ Jesus.  (e.g. 2Cor.13:11, Ph.2:15, 2Tm.3:17, Hebr.5:14)

 

God bless.

[Heleadethme]

Jhn 17:23

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Eph 4:13

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

......just noticed in looking into this topic, that Paul is here echoing the prayer of Jesus in John 17:23 above.  Being perfect has to do with growing into the stature of the fullness of Christ.

 

Heb 2:10

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So we are likewise being made perfect through our sufferings, as we follow in the footsteps of Jesus, the captain of our salvation.

 

It seems that scriptures below show us a difference between those who are “yet carnal” and those who are “spiritual”.   The term “perfect” is a way of saying to be spiritual...spiritually mature and no longer carnal babes.

1Co 3:1-5

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the LORD gave to every man?

1Co 2:12-16

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (His spiritual mind)

Heb 5:11-14

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6 follows on from Hebrews 5, so the milk of the word are those foundational things mentioned in the OP from Hebrews 6, that we are not to remain camped behind at, but leave camp on the shores of the Red Sea in order to keep following the cloud/fire all the way to the Land of Promise....leaving those things which are behind and reaching for what lies ahead.  Keep growing in other words, and how we do that on our part is to take up our cross and keep following/obeying Christ (pillar of cloud/fire).

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I think we are given these to show that while in the flesh we are at war.  That no matter how hard we try we are going to fail sometimes, and that is known by God.  I think it is so we don't become proud.  I think it is also because it has to span from those  first coming to the Lord to those who have been living in Christ a long time. 

Exactly, I agree sister....the things we suffer and the price we pay while we war with Satan in order to follow/obey Jesus is God's wisdom to progressively put our flesh to death and keep us humble.  Think you will enjoy this little gem:

Deu 7:22

And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.

(The beasts in our flesh nature....how wise is our God!)

 

 

[Guest clancy]

Dead works ,are when the unregenerate are trying to work for a place in Heaven?

if you haven’t been saved, there is no pleasing God?

You must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God.

With out it, your works are dead?....God doesn’t recognise them.

Thats my take on it.

Edited March 10, 2021 by clancy