HEBREWS 6:1-2

[Frits]

Although nowhere explicitly stated, I think Paul is the writer of the Hebrew letter.
His knowledge of the angelic world and his deep insight and explanation of the life and position of the Lord Jesus Christ above the angels, points to that. (C1,2)

Chapter 6 begins with the call, "Therefore.. let us go on unto perfection", after the foundation of Christ has been laid.

The writer then indicates which parts are found in the foundation according to the "doctrine of Christ":

1. Of repentance from dead works.

2. Of faith toward God.

3. Of the doctrine of baptisms.

4. Of laying on of hands.

5. Of resurrection of the dead.

6. Of eternal judgment.

Because the Foundation is divided into 6 subtopics here, I realize the great scope of this topic.
Nevertheless, I want to offer the possibility to say something about some of these 6 points in any order, because they belong inseparably together and together form our foundation Jesus Christ. (1Cor.3:11)

God bless you.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Frits said:

Although nowhere explicitly stated, I think Paul is the writer of the Hebrew letter.
His knowledge of the angelic world and his deep insight and explanation of the life and position of the Lord Jesus Christ above the angels, points to that. (C1,2)

Chapter 6 begins with the call, "Therefore.. let us go on unto perfection", after the foundation of Christ has been laid.

The writer then indicates which parts are found in the foundation according to the "doctrine of Christ":

1. Of repentance from dead works.

2. Of faith toward God.

3. Of the doctrine of baptisms.

4. Of laying on of hands.

5. Of resurrection of the dead.

6. Of eternal judgment.

Because the Foundation is divided into 6 subtopics here, I realize the great scope of this topic.
Nevertheless, I want to offer the possibility to say something about some of these 6 points in any order, because they belong inseparably together and together form our foundation Jesus Christ. (1Cor.3:11)

God bless you.

I did not like everything, that's the best way to put it. 

I did not say everything about what you posted but everything about the six points.

Let's look at point 5. The resurrection of the dead.

How can we know what the writer is talking about, and then, how can we know if it was part of his growth to have a change of understanding in this matter. 

If we know what is his understanding in this matter #5, at the time he wrote the letter, then we can say with confidence what his understanding was at the time he wrote the letter. 

Only if he had died, right after he wrote the letter we can say that the writer died with this understanding, and that with some exceptions. 

And within this narrow window from the time he wrote the letter and the time he died he had changed his understanding just like Paul. 

Knowing from the context of his letter that the writer was born and grew up under the Law, and at the time of the letter he is in the faith of Jesus Christ. 

First he is telling us #1, that he no longer is participating in the righteousness of the Law and following the Jewish religious Calendar. 

And he is telling that a believer in Jesus Christ #2, must distance him self from all the religious rules and rituals in the  book of Deuteronomy #1, #3. 

The ritualistic water cleansing in the book of Deuteronomy.

Which made the people eligible to participate in the religious Calendar celebrations.   

Edited March 8, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I did not like everything, that's the best way to put it. 

I did not say everything about what you posted but everything about the six points.

Let's look at point 5. The resurrection of the dead.

How can we know what the writer is talking about, and then, how can we know if it was part of his growth that his understanding change in this matter. 

If we know what is his understanding in this matter #5, at the time he wrote the letter, then we can say with confidence what his understanding at the time he wrote the letter was. 

Only if he died, right after he wrote the letter we can say that the writer died with this understanding, and that with some exceptions. 

And that would be that within this narrow window from the time he wrote the letter and the time he died he had changed his understanding just like Paul. 

Knowing from the context of his letter that the writer was born and grew up under the Law, and at the time of the letter he is in the faith of Jesus Christ. 

First he is telling us #1, that he no longer is participating in the righteousness of the Law and following the Jewish religious Calendar. 

And he is telling that a believer in Jesus Christ #2, must distance him self from all the religious rules and rituals in the  book of Deuteronomy #1, #3. 

The ritualistic water cleansing in the book of Deuteronomy.

Which made the people eligible to participate in the religious Calendar celebrations.   

Hi Ycf,

As I have said, it's clear to me that the Hebrew letter is of an apostolic level, and therefore carries the authority of an apostle of the Lord Jesus in its teaching.

The interesting thing about point 5 is that the resurrection of the dead is already mentioned in the foundation, so it belongs at the beginning of the Gospel.

Therefore the resurrection of the dead does not begin in 1Cor.15, but has already started from the preaching of the Lord Jesus.

Joh 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The believer who fell asleep in the Lord Jesus have reached spiritual perfection in 1Cor.15:52, as a result of which their heavenly body is also able to assume a form in order to appear on earth with it.
The resurrection of their soul and spirit was the beginning, culminating when they are resurrected with an incorruptible body.

The Lord Jesus also preceded us in this, when after His death and resurrection He appeared to many with His heavenly body.
That body could enter the room with windows and doors closed, and at the same time it could also have 'flesh and bones'. (Lk.24:39)

[Frits]

43 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Of course, we know that in the flesh body, we will never reach perfection

Mat 5:48 KJV

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do you think SONshine, should we understand these words of the Lord Jesus?

Is it unreasonable what He is asking of us here, or even absolutely impossible?

Or should we try to die as soon as possible in order to fulfill this order from the Master?

Why should perfection be unattainable in us through the Holy Ghost?

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi Ycf,

As I have said, it's clear to me that the Hebrew letter is of an apostolic level, and therefore carries the authority of an apostle of the Lord Jesus in its teaching.

The interesting thing about point 5 is that the resurrection of the dead is already mentioned in the foundation, so it belongs at the beginning of the Gospel.

Therefore the resurrection of the dead does not begin in 1Cor.15, but has already started from the preaching of the Lord Jesus.

Joh 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The believer who fell asleep in the Lord Jesus have reached spiritual perfection in 1Cor.15:52, as a result of which their heavenly body is also able to assume a form in order to appear on earth with it.
The resurrection of their soul and spirit was the beginning, culminating when they are resurrected with an incorruptible body.

The Lord Jesus also preceded us in this, when after His death and resurrection He appeared to many with His heavenly body.
That body could enter the room with windows and doors closed, and at the same time it could also have 'flesh and bones'. (Lk.24:39)

 

11 hours ago, Frits said:

Although nowhere explicitly stated, I think Paul is the writer of the Hebrew letter.
His knowledge of the angelic world and his deep insight and explanation of the life and position of the Lord Jesus Christ above the angels, points to that. (C1,2)

Chapter 6 begins with the call, "Therefore.. let us go on unto perfection", after the foundation of Christ has been laid.

The writer then indicates which parts are found in the foundation according to the "doctrine of Christ":

1. Of repentance from dead works.

2. Of faith toward God.

3. Of the doctrine of baptisms.

4. Of laying on of hands.

5. Of resurrection of the dead.

6. Of eternal judgment.

Because the Foundation is divided into 6 subtopics here, I realize the great scope of this topic.
Nevertheless, I want to offer the possibility to say something about some of these 6 points in any order, because they belong inseparably together and together form our foundation Jesus Christ. (1Cor.3:11)

God bless you.

Hello brother Frits, 

It's always building up to from the themes in discussion we never leave them the same.

I should let you know that I do not like Hebrews very much. Is not about the person, and is not about his writings, but it is about the people who have given some strange twists to what he wrote down at the time he wrote this letter. 

Do we have something from the same writer that he wrote on a later time in his life, or even earlier on the same subject of #5.

That will help us to understand how his "striving for perfection" in this subject was shaping up.

I think it would be beneficial to follow him in his growth in this subject #5. 

And I would like to know If we have anything else from any other Apostle in the same subject #5. 

Hallelujah, finally I properly or correctly put down my thoughts.  

God bless 

 

#5 in the list

 

[Frits]

7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Hello brother Frits, 

It's always building up to from the themes in discussion we never leave them the same.

I should let you know that I do not like Hebrews very much. Is not about the person, and is not about his writings, but it is about the people who have given some strange twists to what he wrote down at the time he wrote this letter. 

Do we have something from the same writer that he wrote on a later time in his life, or even earlier on the same subject of #5.

That will help us to understand how his "striving for perfection" in this subject was shaping up.

I think it would be beneficial to follow him in his growth in this subject #5. 

And I would like to know If we have anything else from any other Apostle in the same subject #5. 

Hallelujah, finally I properly or correctly put down my thoughts.  

God bless 

 

#5 in the list

 

Hi Ycf,

Too bad you don't like Hebrews that much, maybe we can change that a bit for the better ;-)
Can you give an example of such "strange twists", some people have given to what Hebrews says.
As you know, it is clear to me that Paul is the writer of the Hebrew letter.  That means that for reference I also include the texts 1Cor.25:52, 1Th.4:16, 2Th.1: 7 and Mt.24:31.  Moreover, we know that Paul received his teaching directly from the Lord Jesus.  (Gal.1:12)
At the same time, this also says a lot about his enormous knowledge about the Kingdom of God, so naturally also about subject # 5 from the list.

I'd love to hear what you think about that, God bless.

Frits

[Frits]

12 hours ago, SONshine said:

Hi, Fritz. . .

As I understand it, perfection is impossible without Christ.  ....but Christians will always press towards that goal, as Paul explains in Philippians 3:12-15. 

Philippians 3:12-15

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

In Matthew 5:48, I believe that Jesus is telling me to be mature and complete in Him by loving my enemies—something the world would not expect.  Jesus is telling me that He expects much more than what the world would give. "Perfect" in the Strong's Greek dictionary is #5048, "Teleioo,” and means consecrated and matured, and I believe that is how Jesus expects all of His children to act.

Hi SONshine,

Thank you for your clear explanation. As you yourself rightly said, perfection is impossible without Christ.
But did He not say:

Joh 14:26 KJV 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things'

If the Holy Spirit dwells in us through baptism, is the perfection suggested by the Lord Jesus in Mt.5:48 attainable or not?
Does the Hebrew writer mean that in v1?

"but Christians will always press towards that goal"

That is very special that you are stating this so openly here.
The Christians I talk to are talking about their eternal sinnerhood!
They were sinners, they are still sinners now, and they say they will remain sinners until they die, that's their own confession!
(Remember, where I live used to be almost J. Calvin's backyard.)

The Savior from sins, Jesus Christ, means little more to those Christians than a big paper lion!

As for the word 'perfect' that the Lord Jesus uses with regard to us in Mt.5:48, it is remarkable that in my Greek dictionary it's not # 5048 but
Strong G5046:

1-brought to its end, finished
2-wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3-perfect
4-that which is perfect consummate human integrity and virtue

Nice to think about these things..

God bless

[Buddy D. Mouse]

To say "I don't know who wrote Hebrews" (which I don't) also has to mean that I DON'T KNOW THAT PAUL DIDN'T WRITE IT.

I don't think he did, but it is unknown. Timothy is mentioned as "having been released from prison" and I don't know anywhere that says that Timothy went to prison.

The Tabernacle is talked of rather than the Temple.

There is a focus on Melchisedek's priesthood...

 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Episcopius said:

To say "I don't know who wrote Hebrews" (which I don't) also has to mean that I DON'T KNOW THAT PAUL DIDN'T WRITE IT.

I don't think he did, but it is unknown. Timothy is mentioned as "having been released from prison" and I don't know anywhere that says that Timothy went to prison.

The Tabernacle is talked of rather than the Temple.

There is a focus on Melchisedek's priesthood...

 

He was the light he made himself known during the plagues in Moses time.

He gave the message to Pharaoh that he does not want to be with them but only with the Israelites. 

Only in the houses of the children of Abraham his light shine. 

Before that he was in the world from the beginning. 

"There be light" in Genesis 1: 

Jesus during the feast of the Lights, he stood up and cried I am the Light of the world ".

Jesus at another time he said: "you are the light",

He foretold that the light who this time is inside the disciples it will shine and be proclaimed in the whole world, that his disciples will be the bearers of the Light to be given by them to whole world. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Ah!  Could it be that Mt. 5:48 is telling us to be perfect because we can be?—by doing what 1John tells us to do?  ....that when we confess our sins, He makes us righteous again and thus perfect?

You are worrying too much for nothing. 

This is how we start (so to speak our journey) perfect in him, when we are not perfect in ourselves.