HEBREWS 6:1-2

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Not sure what you're trying to say. I was simply pointing out the early Church did not know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews; they had no position stating Paul was it's author. 

That's what I was trying to say to other members in my other discussion and from your previous postings you explained that there are different positions taken in this matter, and you said you "remain silent ".

And why you remain silent and my response was to encourage you to say it. 

No that you needed my encouraging but to let the others know that you have something to say but that "choose to remain silent ".

The person who says "I choose to remain silent " is informing others that I know something about the matters at hand, but I choose not to say anything at the moment. 

And my response it meant to solicit from you what you had to say. And to inform the others we need to hear you in this matter. 

If my intent was not seen and not asked as to why I said that to clarify my statement and I should have been asked to clarify what I said, it's not left to anyone's interpretation as to what I intended to say.

I never refuse to conform to a request as to say what I wanted to say using different words. 

It was a choice of words, not even a choice of words, as it a spontaneous response without much thought. 

That's all speaking for my self. 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

So it shall be, the OP wants to discuss those six points.

One point is the repentance of "dead works", it's asking us to repent from "dead works", each and every one of us has to figure out for our selves what we need to repent from.

We have to look in our "works".

If they can be within "dead works" we needed to repent from  it.

The writer goes on to say, that as a result of reaching maturity we can tell right from wrong. 

Perhaps that's what we need to do to look in our selves and discern if what we do is right or wrong.

The brighter is not asking how we justify what we do as right or wrong, I hope so. 

That's what usually most people some time do, they know what is done is not right but the excuse makes it right.

The tighter of Hebrews asks to discern between right and wrong without the justification or persuasion or by prejudicial persuasion, because of color, religion or greed or gender. 

 

That time they had their issues, but we are not them.

In our times we have ours that are relevant to us.

Hope that I stay in what the OP is asking. The discussion of one of the six points.

God bless

Hi Ycf,
Thank you for your nice post, with which you start to discuss the content of the Foundation of Heb.6:1-2.
That was indeed the sole purpose of my OP.

It's not accidental that repentance from "dead works" in Heb.6:1 precedes faith toward God.
As long as a person does not yet believe in God, he automatically works in the service of sin and the reward is known! (Rm.6:23)
Without faith toward God, man, individually or collectively, is unable to receive God's righteousness.
For all the work that a man does without faith toward God has brought him to death! (Rm.14:23, Eph.2:1)
The great division in his life, the great reversal comes with his conversion to God.  Then he comes out of the shadow of death and rises in the true Light of God. (Jh.5:24, Col.1:13, 1Pt.2:9)
As a human being, however, you can never be in these two situations at the same time: you are either in death, or you live for God.

The Lord Jesus, as far as flesh is concerned, emerged from the Jewish people. (Rm.9:5)
It was clear to the Jews that the "Gentiles" who did not know the law were cursed.  (Jh.7:49)
But it gets interesting when we start looking at #2 faith toward God.
Most Jews, despite their law, despite their temple, despite their circumcision, and despite their entire religious paradigm, were (and are!) also under the curse. (Jh.3:36)
Of course because those Jews (fortunately there was a remnant who did believe in Him!), did not want to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God!
The # 2 point from Hebrews 6:1 "faith toward God" can therefore only mean: faith toward Jesus Christ, He is God.
So whoever talks about 'God', but does not mention the Lord Jesus is wrong!
Repentance to God is repentance to Jesus Christ.  Faith toward God is faith toward Jesus Christ.
This was the terrible sin of the Jewish religion, not wanting to accept Jesus Christ as God!
Judaism, the Jewish roots, the Jewish doctrine of duty, and all their feigned piety, they wanted to hold on to it while they murdered Jesus the Son of God!
However, that rejection of the Lord Jesus was used by the Most High to save us from dead, hallelujah!

Frits

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thx. I believe I have already provided plenty to consider and discuss. I've approached the op and the verses of concern in several ways. If the affirmations the posts have received are a valid indication then there appears to be agreement with (nearly?) everyone except the op and he and I are not interested in discussing the op with each other further (assuming such an interest in others' posts was ever possessed ). With so much agreement the op appears to have run its course. However, if there was something I wrote of particular interest I'll happily discuss it. Otherwise, I have no direction to which I can tailor further comment or inquiry and any addition I feel led to post will take us further away from the op because, for example, I think Mel worth discussing. I think the nature of "dead works" for the already saved is a worthy conversation since Hebrews 6:1-2 might not be talking about pre-conversion works that never brought salvation. Since the text itself specifies moving on from the beginning teachings we might explore "what's next?". Since we (the Church) appear to be entering a season when theologians explore Jewish roots it could be worthy to discuss the Judaic context of the two verses of concern and their  shifts in meaning and practice in the NT-era ekklesia. Lots could legitimately be taken from those two verses and the passage in which they occur. 

You know as well as I do how easy it is to hijack an op without purposing to do so. Heaven forbid next week or next month I get refused a conversation because I supposedly hijacked this op. That's one of the reasons I so often try to stay op-relevant and ask others to do the same. 

A small window of interest and I hope we will get away with that as our intent is not to change the discussion of the OP, and maybe relevant to Hebrews, we have to wait and see.

***the High Priest in the Law had a function deferent than Melhisedec and in an entire deferent environment. 

Jesus like Melhisedec had nothing to do with the duties of the Priests. NOTHING. 

With some discretion. And what common Jesus Christ have with Melhisedec. 

We cannot denied that God had prophets out side Abraham's seed.

We see that Abraham meets someone who was also a righteous person in the eyes of God, who knew about him without Abraham telling him anything about him self. 

And he had a righteousness on his own Merit and was regarded as a High Preist of God without offering sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins for himself. 

Both Jesus and Melhisedec were in their own righteousness. 

Both in the Life of God through their obedience and Jesus in the Life  and Melhisedec in Death.

Melhisedec had an earthly Father who gave him life.

Jesus had God as his Father and was the God Almighty and he was looking forwards to something that could not have and had to enter our world born in Bethlehem from his mother Mary.

Having been carried in her womb for the gestation period of nine months. 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I completely agree, with perhaps one possible point of clarification. 

I was reading in another currently continuing thread of another op some commentary on the Law. When we speak of Law or law or duties, etc. we must remember a very important foundational truth: All laws are God's laws. That's not to say that humans don't make rules and regulations and call them "laws;" I am not denying that occurrence. I'm saying there's only one Law Maker and all His laws ultimately come down to a simple construct: being like Him! That's why human laws often do not work; they are not built from truth, they don't well-represent the structures or design of creation, or they do not reflect the character of God. 

Melchizedek is pre-Law, but he is not pre-law. You are completely correct to say Jesus did not perform the Levitical duties but it is important the correct order: all the Levitical duties were foreshadows of Christ! There have always been laws. The begin with the design structures of creation. Morality is like gravity or magnetism; there are very substantive cause-and-effect realities to sin. Likewise, there are very substantive cause-and-effect realities to uprightness or obedience. It is not simply the Law of Moses that Jesus fulfills; he fulfills all the law and the prophets and psalms. As you've astutely pointed out, God had prophets outside of Abraham's seed (who is Jesus, not Israel; Galatians 3:16). God Himself began prophesying at least as far back as Genesis 3, long before Abram met Mel, long before Abe drew breath. 

All the law testifies to Christ. What were the first laws? 1) Be fruitful and multiply; subdue and rule the earth, and 2) Don't eat of the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden; of the knowledge of good and evil. These two laws can be summarized rule and obey. Pretty simple. 

It was within that overarching centuries-old context Jesus was made flesh but remember he'd been destined (foreknown) to come before the world was created. That means before a single law was ever created, or ever uttered. Jesus is not just pre-Law; he is pre-law. The law testifies of him. 

 

I think it alos important to note Mel is both king and priest. The same is true of Jesus. Whether or not we believe Mel was an OT Christophany isn't wholly germane to the fact God's design for authority has always been the integrated rule of priestly king, and not the separated monarch and priest. That was Moses' doing. That was Israel's doing when the Judges failed. That was the Hellenized Jew's doing.

We are royal priests. When Peter writes those words he is throwing all the way back to Mel but also much, much further back. It was Peter who informs us of the foreknown nature of Christ as the perfect sacrifice. We are not rulers in the image of Saul or David; nor are we clerics in the image of Aaron or Levi. No, our royal priesthood is that of Christ and not just Christ of dying works, faithful toward God, baptized and laying on hands..... and not just the royal priesthood of the Christ of resurrection and eternal life but the Christ ascended and now enthroned. 

Psalm 110:1 
"The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'" 

Isaiah 66:1
"Thus says the LORD, 'Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool...'" 

And, of course, these words of the prophets were reiterated with new revelation repeatedly throughout the New Testament. The author of Hebrews mines Melchizedek (and later the temple) for their profound significance in Christ. Because he did so we are ably to move on from the elementary teachings on to greater maturity. 

 

This is an amazing post you indroduce me to a lot of things I use to read and were just words from the book, but now they are meaningful and they are the reason when I read the same passages or when I hear their names my thoughts are enriched and I feel very privileged to have been exposed to your knowledge.

You do have a special way of communicating what you need to say.

The part that you said that the Lord bless them and told them to be fruitful and to be multiple. 

That made me think that he was telling that the human race will never come to extinction. 

The same way he told Abraham. 

He knew that he will enter the world through birth from a descendant of Abraham. 

Sometimes I think that when God just created Adam he knew that one day he will be just like that and that there was not going to be a come back to where he was before. 

When he said "the seed of the woman" he knew that he was talking about him self and how he will enter our world through birth.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thank you for the kind words. 

Doesn't the book of Hebrews greatly expand our understanding of the book of Romans? As great a theological work as is Romans imagine how we might view it were we not informed about the priesthood and temple as the author of Hebrews did. Paul, and James, et all exhort their readers to "move on." Consider the Hebrews admonition to leave the beginning teachings with Paul's words in 1 Cor. 3 or Peter's in 1 Pet. 2. 

1 Corinthians 3:1-4
"And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.  I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,  for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?  For when one says, 'I am of Paul,' and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not mere men?"

1 Peter 2:1-3
"Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,  like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,  if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord." 

Mere men. 

Humans fear angels. It is a common thing for angels' first words to us to be "Fear not...,"  but why? Are they not all ministering servants sent to render service to those who will inherit salvation? Originally made lower than the angels, some of us will one day sit in judgment over them, Isaiah cried out as a garment rent asunder in the presence of the six-winged beings constantly surrounding God in glorious light singing His praises and yet not one of them was ever offered salvation as far as we know. No, instead, those who did not keep their proper abode were cast out and held in bonds of darkness until judgment, never being offered the grace about which so many of our kin are completely ignorant. Even hearing the words many of our ilk never understand, never come to the salvation so freely given by our Creator but withheld from those created for another purpose. 

Ours is the privilege to not just receive forgiveness but to be forgiven. Not only to be forgiven but to be forgivers! 

What angel, what species has been privileged to have God extend grace in such a way? What species knows grace, mercy, forgiveness, reconciliation as we now know it and how meager our present knowledge compared to the day we receive white robes and eternal life, robes to cover the charred and soot covered appearance we'll all likely bear having emerged from testing and remained saved. How glorious that will be in comparison to the alternative where wrath is just as freely given by the God of vengeance. 

Mere men. Royal priests (and priestesses ) in the Melchizedekian Order, serving as the temple of God in whom His Son lives. Just amazing if true. It is by grace we have been saved through faith... for works He has already planned for us to perform before our salvation. 

Hebrews 6:1-3
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,  of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.  And this we will do, if God permits."

Hmm....

Hebrews 6:9-20
"But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation........... In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,  so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.  This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,  where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

Are you convinced? 

 

Some would have us learn about Six Points of the Foundation of the Gospel  and use it to judge one another , refusing to discuss all else to be learned , and not leave for more meaty and fruit-bearing deeper matters found in maturity . 

 

Hebrews 7:1-5
"For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,  to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.  Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.  Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.  And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham." 

Galatians 3:2-7 ESV
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?  Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—  just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?  Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham."

John 1:9-13
"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,  who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 Peter 2:4-10
"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,  you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ....   ...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

And anyone who has honestly faced the depths, darkness, and depravity of their sin is amazed at this. 

 Romans 8:15-17
"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'"

I am brought to tears. 

I wonder how He can expect us to do any work crying with so much shame and joy. What was He thinking?  

Romans 8:15-17
"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." 

 

 

Hebrews 6:1-3
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,  of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.  And this we will do, if God permits."

 

It's late for me so I will put away my soap box  and thank you for you patience, tolerance, and kind words. It was nice to be reminded of His word, stirred by your post Ycf. I pray this was not too long, too intellectual, too condescending, too much of me and not enough of Christ. G'night all.

It a blessing to read it and I usually read the posts more than once and more than twice. 

Good night and God bless. 

[Guest clancy]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

It a blessing to read it and I usually read the posts more than once and more than twice. 

Good night and God bless. 

Me too,YCF....he is such a blessing......

[Heleadethme]

In line with where the Lord seems to be taking this conversation at the moment, and thanking the OP for his patience in bearing with it ?, I’ll just offer this contribution.

Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

So we see how the role of temple priest was an INTERCESSORY one for the people, as well as to minister to God and to the people.

Num 25:13 (speaking of Aaron here)

He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”

Heb 7:25

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

And now just think, as others are mentioning, we also are a priesthood of all believers interceding for others and forgiving/loosing their sins:

1Pe 2:4

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

Mat 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:18

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.....

Mat 18:27

.......Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Intercessory role of forgiving sins and loosing/unbinding people from them, as well as unbinding the people from the direct or indirect consequences of sin....sickness, disease, evil spirits etc.  (goes hand in hand with binding the devil/demons.)

[Your closest friendnt]

On 3/14/2021 at 1:01 PM, Josheb said:

Paul is certainly a possibility but that was not the position of the early Church. Hebrews 2:3 states, “a commencement declared by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those having heard, God bearing witness with them both by signs and wonders.” If this is read to mean those who either heard Jesus in person, or had some special revelation from him then that would preclude Paul as the author. Hebrews does not open with a statement of authorship, as do all of Paul’s epistles. Tertullian wrote of “an epistle to the Hebrews under the name of Barnabas.” Barnabas, as we know from Acts 4, was a Levite from Cyprus, so he would have had a full understanding of Judaism from priestly perspective. It was he who brought Paul to the apostolic council (Acts 9), indicating some preeminence of Barnabas over Paul(!). Martin Luther thought the book of Hebrews was written by Apollos due to his being an Alexandrian, “a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the scriptures,” (Acts 18:24). He would have had a knowledge f the Septuagint, which is reflected in the Greek manuscripts of Hebrews. But knowledge of the Septuagint would have also been true of Paul and Barnabas. No one knows who the author was but we can trust that which was written in the epistle is consistent with the whole of scripture and should be measure accordingly. 

 

Hebrews 2:3-4 NIV

....... This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

The author if Hebrews includes himself among the people who heard the Gospel from the disciples of Jesus Christ. 

He says that "the Gospel it was announced to us", 

He said that he was one of a group who heard the Gospel of the disciples who heard the Gospel from Jesus before his ascension and that would be right after the Penticost. 

He is a post Penticost believer. 

And he is a witness of the miracles performed by Jesus Christ disciples  and the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit among them.  

The author does not say that he heard the Gospel in Jerusalem neither he referred to any names of the disciples those who they preached the Gospel to them.

And there were about five hundred people who witness the ascension. And more than 120 in the upper room.

Ananias who was a disciple and was in the gifts of the Holy Spirit was in Damascus. 

Paul was going to Damascus because many of the disciples had fled Jerusalem and a lot of them were in Antioch. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Your closest friendnt